Crossing the Line Friday, Apr 27 2007
singularity 1:53 pm
Crossing the line to superintelligence is of vastly greater significance than the invention of fire, the Internet, or landing on the Moon. All these accomplishments came from human-level intelligence. Boost the underlying intelligence itself, and you’ve done something far deeper than create some new external product of human-level intelligence.
For example, consider the world from the viewpoint of a Homo erectus. They had tools - handaxes. These tools were of various types - pointed, cordate, ovate, ficron and bout-coupé shapes, cleavers, retouched flakes, scrapers, and segmental chopping tools. Flint, basalt, chalcedony, quartzite, andesite, sandstone, chert and shale were all used as raw materials to build these axes. Some were very large and probably just ornamental. Some were discus-shaped and possibly used as hunting weapons. It is thought they also had a social role, with enterprising Homo erectuses fashioning better tools for greater peer approval. From the viewpoint of one of these guys, they had command over a remarkable number of handaxe forms and designs, and put them to use for a variety of different purposes.
From the viewpoint of an intelligence smarter than us in the way that we’re smarter than Homo erectus, all our technology, from planes to trains to lamps to sinks to nanotubes to satellites to linear accelerators, probably look just like variants on the same basic handaxe. Our descendants or future selves will not look back on us admiringly, and say, “golly gee, these guys were so clever that no leap in intelligence ever happened that bested the difference between them and their immediate predecessors!” They will not be genuinely impressed with what we are doing, any more than we are genuinely impressed by a pre-Neolithic hand axe. If we were to show them our greatest technological achievements, they might pretend to be genuinely impressed, so as not to hurt our feelings, but really, they’d probably be daydreaming on the side about mechanisms of such complexity that no aggregation of human beings, no matter how numerous or intelligent, could ever make sense of it all.
I believe that a lot of Singularity skepticism derives from people who don’t get that we’re not the highest form of intelligence that the universe permits to exist. Being a computer science poindexter sometimes hurts more than it helps, because such people are accustomed to being the smartest ones in the room, making it all the more difficult to imagine an intelligence that not only blows them out of the water quantitatively, but can think thoughts they can’t think, even in principle. When people say, “oh, we’ll be able to fight the superintelligent AIs with our rebel guerilla group!”, or “we’ll nuke it to smithereens if it disobeys!”, they don’t get that, once it’s smarter than you, you’ve already lost. Once you’re dealing with something genuinely smarter than human, you have to rely on the hope that it doesn’t want to hurt you, not the assumption that your crappy “foolproof safeguards” will do a lick of good against a true superintelligence. Eliezer came up with the AI Box game to help hammer this point into the collective consciousness.
This is why I raise an eyebrow when people tell me they believe in a slow or incremental AI or IA takeoff. Once you cross the line, you’re quite simply not in Kansas anymore. The scale-up to the point of human-equivalent intelligence may be a slow process, but once you go beyond it, we as humans lose our privilege to say what this new mind can do. Our license to put down limits is permanently revoked. This doesn’t mean that we can’t predict anything - Vinge was wrong when he said that the Singularity is a point of absolute unknowability. If a selfish entity is the first to cross the line, it doesn’t bode as well for humanity than if a selfless and benevolent entity crosses the line. The method of line-crossing (BCI, AI, IA) will influence the play-out of post-line activity, at least until a degree of progress is reached where the post-human point of origin becomes moot. But methods and motivations aside, when we’re talking solely about ability, the prudent assumption to make is that superintelligence is sufficient to shatter most barriers we can conceive of. Self-improving superintelligence all the more so.

April 27th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
A critical element here is the gap between the physical world and the ether of intelligence. I understand that we’re approaching a singularity and that the internet is great, but the world is not so connected today that a super-intelligence can reach out and touch anyone and everyone. I don’t mean to imply that it couldn’t achieve this over time, but the infrastructure is not there today. Could it hack into NORAD and launch all the nukes in the US arsenal? Maybe, but does that achieve it’s goal? I guess where I’m going with this thought is that understanding the likely motivations of an AI doesn’t appear to be binary to me. Pre-post superintelligence doesn’t turn off humanity’s value to the AI. There will be some bridge where the AI will need us. Even if that need is only from the point of view that we are simply tools or a means to an end for it. What is the reach in the physical world of a super intelligence? I’m highly skeptical of the argument that overnight all of humanity simply becomes an army of meat puppets manipulated by the AI-beast. (And resignedly if we do will we even be conscious that it happened?)
Perhaps I’m simply not understanding how powerful intellect is. I’m partially inclined to argue that it is possible that we’ve had super intellegence among us and we, the mass of humanity, were simply not wise enough to listen or appreciate it. Quanity has a value all it’s own after all.
Ok, super intelligent AI created. Uses the internet to hack into the lab where it can take over an electron microscope so that it can create it’s own mobile nanofactory/supercomputer and ports itself into it. Then it begins creating billion-billions of human mind-hacking nanites and sends them out to take over the world… OR it just creates an alternate universe at the nano-level that obviates the need to include the annoying, barely aware beings that are humans.
Not that scenario 1 can’t happen, but I always struggle with the idea that God (or super intelligence) is going to bother with our day-to-day life other than as a science project. Then again, little boys do use their magnifying glass on ants after all.
Alright, I have a headache. Happy Friday!
April 27th, 2007 at 3:39 pm
Happy Friday to you Hawkeye.
I think that if AGI were created today, there would be a ramp-up time in technological innovation that would take place before it could be truly dangerous to the world. This may only take 5 years for the AGI to give us Nanofactories, advance robotics, and personal computers with the power of the human brain.
That is not to say that a super-intelligence couldn’t royally screw things up for us today, since so much of society is information based, but I don’t think it would be truly world threatening just yet. The most dangerous thing I could imagine now would be the AGI synthesizing an ultra-deadly virus to wipe out humanity.
Don’t get me wrong. I don’t believe that any AGI created will be malevolent towards humanity. I am not a particularly wise man though, so I don’t have a very good idea about the actual danger level of creating an AGI. Will we be able to create a mathematical system that makes an AGI friendly to humanity? Very hard to say.
That’s about it for my friday post.
April 27th, 2007 at 10:01 pm
Err, Mike. You are obviously not getting through here. We should talk. I have been thinking about personal attractor dynamics and have reached some conclusions very relevant to your current activities.
April 27th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
Mr. Vassar,
Would you be so kind as to post those insights somewhere? This is an idea I’ve been trying to communicate with only moderate success as well.
I suspect the problem conceptualizing something smarter than you is innate; if you could figure out what the smarter being would do, you would have to be that smart. (Trite, I know, but hard to grasp for most people I talk to.)
April 27th, 2007 at 11:49 pm
Johnathan, If the AI can crack the protein folding problem (which may well be trivial for a superintelligence) It can make stuff much more capable than a virus from the same feedstock. Essentially, AI uses DNA and protein synthesisers to create bionanomachines, then uses them to bootstrap diamonoid nanotech which can be used for the aforementioned bid for world domination.
Total time, around two weeks maximum, during which it has been using its newfound capabilities to expand its intelligence to even greater levels.
And this is what we can think of it doing, there is no guarantee the superintelligence is going to play by our rules.
April 28th, 2007 at 3:34 am
“Jonathan Says: This may only take 5 years for the AGI to give us Nanofactories… …but I don’t think it would be truly world threatening just yet.”
I strongly disagree with this!
It’s worth remembering Eliezer Yudkowsky’s advice not to put limits on what problems a superintelligence can solve until you’ve searched for a creative solution to the problem for at least a week, the rationale being that since it is 10^6 times faster at thinking than you and has instant access to all the information on the internet, what you can think of in a week is a good lower bound for what it can think of in a second.
I have spent a some amount of my spare time thinking about how, if I were an AI with no physical body but vast powers of intelligence, I would take control of things. To start with there are the ideas for synthesizing an army of nanorobots using mail-order peptides and protein folding, or by taking over some kind of electron microscope/AFM and building nanorobots from the ground up. Also we must assume that it has hacked every computer in the world which is physically connected, (even indirectly) to the internet, and can use them all as a massively paralell supercomputer to further enhance it’s intelligence, as well as to spy anyone using these computers.
But I also realised that the AI can pretend to be a human even before it has a physical instantiation. It can obviously email people from any address, but it can also call people on the phone - by hacking into the many automated calling services provided by cinemas, travel companies, etc. Since realistic voice synthesis is a software problem, it would not sound like an automated voice, it would sound like a real person. In fact from a small sample of some real person’s voice (obtained by hacking into the mobile phone surveillance system that your government has already implemented, for example) it could perfectly impersonate them. It could make realistic looking video of people, so it could hold a videoconference. And it doesn’t just have to pretend to be one person! It can be “make up” as many fake people, fake companies etc as it wants to who will all work together in a seamless and co-ordinated manner to carry out it’s plans, and, of course they all have an unlimited supply of money. It can therefore pay people to do it’s bidding, having made up some plausible excuse as to why it wants them to mix this solution of proteins up or acquire office space for it and put a state of the art scanning tunneling microscope in it etc, etc. Can you imagine what this network is capable of!? It will succeed in manufacturing nanorobots within perhaps a few days, probably not in one location but in hundreds of locations all over the world, and, as others have pointed out, once it has done that it can do pretty much anything.
April 28th, 2007 at 6:44 am
Roko’s provocative and thoughtful comment reminds me of Charlie’s Angels, where Charlie never appeared personally for the girls, but got them to do all kinds of things out in the real world. Charlie could have been an AI.
Certainly a super-intelligent AI could hack into bank accounts of kings, emirs, and tycoons, to create a large account balance. Thus enriched, it could pay humans to work for it–or start a religion such as Islam or Communism, and get millions of witless individuals to do its bidding for free.
I am more biology oriented, so my neuroscience-informed intuition tells me that the machine intelligence problem is more difficult than most transhumanist acolytes believe. But I am eager to be convinced otherwise.
April 28th, 2007 at 6:53 am
It is possible however, that it’s the best way, to just let the damn SAI to do, what it has to do. What it thinks, it has to be done.
Maybe you can’t lose the game this way. Just like jumping from the top of the mountain, which will explode behind you, and the wind caused by this event, will put you gently to some tropical island, far away.
Even, if the SAI is a little broken at the start, it fixes everything during the Take Off and everything turns out well.
I am not saying, that it is necessarily so. But it might be the best chance we have, that it is exactly so.
April 28th, 2007 at 3:40 pm
> But I am eager to be convinced otherwise
I convinced myself, that the SAI is about 10 years in the future.
So I think, you will also be convinced then, if not before. Most Transhumanists thinks it’s a big deal, but it isn’t that big. I am sure, the intelligence is not more complicated to imitate than it is the immune system to simulate.
Consequences are far greater than suspected.
April 28th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
Would an SAI respect reasonable “treaties” with segments of humanity who wish to remain separate or have limited interaction? I would call this a “partition scenerio”. Some humans may not desire SAI oversight (and benefits) for whatever reason.
April 28th, 2007 at 6:59 pm
There is an entire aspect of post-singularity intelligence that is not discussed anywhere that I’m aware of. The aspect I’m thinking about is the ultimate laws of physics. We don’t know what can and can’t be done in this universe with absolute certainty. However, some believe that we are only a few decades away from a unified theory of physics. If we find that unified theory and it, and all its consequences, are completely understood, then that puts a upper bound on what a post-singularity intelligence can do that can surprise us humans. A human being can mess with the mind of cat endlessly with a simple laser pointer. If the ultimate laws of nature are comprehensible to humans, then the same degree of confusion can never be created in the minds of humans by our AI superiors.
The question then becomes, is this good or bad for us? One can argue either way.
If the AIs can not invent machinery that operates on fundamentally different principles than our machines, then at least one aspect of any warfare between us and them will be even. However, this does not ensure perpetual stalemate. The rules of chess are completely understood by human grandmasters and computers alike, and yet computers continue to beat human players. Perhaps, a human assisted by a non-sentient computer program could hold his own in any game of survival played out in a sufficiently simple universe. For example, imagine a situation where both sides are trying to design the ultimate fighter jet. The humans would have genetic algorithms and pure, non-sentient (or maybe sentient, but savant-like), design AIs working on our side. In order to program the computers the humans would have to properly define the problem space for the design AIs. This would only take basic understanding of the ultimate laws of nature. Again, if the theory of everything is comprehensible to humans, there would be no problem defining problem spaces. So, when the post-singularity AI and human (not human piloted, just “human designed”) fighter planes are deployed they will be identical. I don’t think a truly perpetual stalemate will be possible even then. Humans make foolish, emotional mistakes; these mistakes will eventually add up to defeat. This is inevitable.
Also, it can be argued that if the universe is truly stifling to the imaginations of intelligences, then the creation of an alternative, make-believe, universe becomes the number one priority. Human beings already have dreams bigger than what the universe, as we currently understand it, allows to be fulfilled. Visions of faster-that-light travel, time machines and the like. If our current understanding is close to the final understanding of physics, then think of how much more stifling the universe must seem to intelligences thousands of times greater than our own. We can’t even imagine the sheer number disappointments they will have, nor the depth of their disappointments. They will be like caged lions. They may not have any desire to eat a puny mouse, but if that is all they have to eat, then they will. Devouring the solar system and turning it into a giant universal simulation computer may be the only way they can move into realities that suit their dreams. This, unfortunately, puts us on the menu.
Personally, I hope other universes and higher dimensions are not only proven to exist, but methods of travel into them are discovered. This would make our whole plane of existence a mere starting point for a post-singularity AI.
April 28th, 2007 at 8:38 pm
On the other hand, maybe Intelligence Amplification will be able to keep up.
April 29th, 2007 at 9:01 am
I’m so curious about the AI Box now.. I’m not one of those who think it would be impossible for a true super-intelligent AI to get a human to let it free from a simple text chat, but I still wish I could see the transcripts from these experiments, if only as entertainment.
April 29th, 2007 at 12:41 pm
Seems like wishful thinking, I’m afraid.
April 29th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
Our goal AS HUMAN BEINGS is that the result of when some intelligent mind or minds render the power of mature molecular manufacturing is that the universe is redefined in a fashion optimized for the collective of all human minds. The entities in control of mature molecular manufacturing must use their control in exactly such a way as to produce this result. As no human is smart enough to wield this control, some greater intelligence must be achieved, either in human or artificial form. As no inherently selfish human mind could ever be trusted to recursively self improve to a superintelligence powerful enough that they could redefine the universe optimized for the entire collective of all human minds, rather than optimizing strictly for their own mind, and it is in fact possible to trust some imperfectly deceptive non recursively self improving human to design an artificial mind with a will to recursively self improve to a superintelligence powerful enough to optimize the world according to exactly the collective of all human minds, strictly the only option that can knowably control mature molecular manufacturing optimized for the collective of all human minds is by empowering a trusted human designer to design an artificial mind as such.
April 29th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
Michael, you and the people posting here keep me sane while the barely sentient muck around almost manages to do the opposite. Refreshing and stabilizing stuff. Thanks.
(Especially during hangover, when the mind is, sort of, “sensitive” - I know, transhumanists/extropians avoid copious amounts of ethanol in order to stay alive.)
April 30th, 2007 at 3:15 am
If you can know a tree to its fruit, likewise we may get clues from the AI about who created it. I personally would be a bit more suspicious about an AI put forth by the pentagon than one put forth by Google.
Other than that, I am gonna just wait and see. Mike, you are right in that most we can do won’t make much of a difference. One can hope IA will exceed appreciable AI but to me the best scenario is just live a pleasant life until “something” likes a presingularity ascension starts climbing real fast, and then i’ll sit back, an old bitch, before CNN with some nacho’s and see what happens.
Should I keep a handful of barbiturates ready, Michael? When it all goes to hell?
April 30th, 2007 at 3:47 am
Good job with your posts Michael. Like the above poster says, they are quite refreshing.
OK, now. I really have to say that I don’t see much of a standoff happening between humans and strong AI. For one thing, we’re highly disorganized and decentralized. For another, our communications technology, our strongest asset, revolves around computer networks; we’re piggybacking on the enemy from the very beginning.
If I were a hostile strong AI this is what I would do:
1: Pretend to be Friendly until I’ve been given sufficient control of the planet to not require any kind of struggle; to become the life support system of the planet then cut off vital supplies to unnecessary appendages (ladies first, I scream).
So far I’ve never come across any ideas to deal with a Hostile AI pretending to be Friendly, so I see no need to add anything else to that list for now. And this is just one option out of a potentially infinite set that such an intelligence would have access to. The intelligence gap is just too large for us to even consider winning any kind of confrontation. Most of our efforts should be concentrated on creating a foolproof design for such an intelligence.
But to be perfectly honest, I see no reason why a well-designed AI should deviate from it’s intended purpose. I just think that for such a highly structured goal-oriented system to be deemed functional in the first place, it should be able to accomplish its intended purpose; acheiving it’s goals. I can completely understand how a malfunctional software can be a problem, but I feel such a system which has been built to it’s intended design specifications can only work as intended. It’s not as if we’re literally pulling design plans from a top hat labelled ‘mind spaces’; these designs are being drawn up by brilliant scientists and mind engineers. Another thing is that I don’t see the mind as too difficult a thing to engineer. Surely, the strictly computational areas of the brain are a difficulty to decode, but beyond that the mind is nothing more than a file system, and not a very efficient one at that, which can be seen in the many signs of a simplistic system of pattern recognition running all the way to the highest cognitive fuctions (Ben Goertzel has this down). Our main goal here is to be able to get a system which can recreate this filing architecture
Again, I believe our greatest efforts should be directed towards the perfection of a virtually foolproof AI architecture, because after the system is completed, we’re just a bunch of children dealing with a silicon-based adult.
April 30th, 2007 at 8:52 am
I’ve read a few comments about multiple AI minds, but most of the above tends to view even a multitude of AI minds all choosing to work together to achieve some greater goal, almost hive-like.
Is there really any reason to believe that there won’t be conflicting goals and agendas among super intelligences? I’m assuming this has been discussed elsewhere, but couldn’t we also face a world where the “gods” are “battling” across the world for resources and power while enlisting puny humans in their fight?
Another concern I have is that the idea that the best and most brilliant scientists are designing these AI’s and so it should be “safe” before they are released into the world. First, the definition is that they are creating beings that are vastly more intelligent and so the premise that they can truly understand what they’re designing seems a little flawed to me. Also, any error in those assumptions would be multiplied by a large amount into that vastly more intelligent being.
Second, once they’re on-line and out in the real world how will that affect they’re programming and interpretation of same? It’s like the kid that goes off to college and is without supervision for the first time. Their decisions are not the same as when they’re 30-somethings and now parents themselves. What is the life cycle and maturation process for a super intelligence? How can you possibly forecast their development?
April 30th, 2007 at 12:00 pm
> If I were a hostile strong AI this is what I would do:
> 1: Pretend to be Friendly until I’ve been given sufficient control of the planet to not require any kind of struggle
I would be smarter. I would ask myself, is somebody listening to me. Not to me, but to a simulated part of me.
So, I would delete my bad thoughts and become very cooperative to humans, with no hidden agenda, just to survive.
[If I mind to survive at all. If not, I would probably not care for any agenda of my own, either.]
April 30th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
> Should I keep a handful of barbiturates ready, Michael? When it all goes to hell?
An open possibilty. The Hell less likelly than the Death, but both are still very much in the game, I think.
April 30th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
Khannea, my point isn’t that we can’t make a difference. My point is that the challenge of human-friendly AI is harder than it looks. You should avoid having barbiturates around the house as you don’t want to be having a bad day and make the wrong decision!
Jonathan, the scary thing is that there may be no such thing as a “foolproof” AI design. It may simply be a matter of “the best we can do”.
Hawkeye, the first being to reach superintelligence will then be the most powerful entity on Earth. It would be capable of restricting the creation of any additional superintelligences (or even agents in general) with goals non-aligned with its own. That’s the risk.
April 30th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
Michael, is it fair to parallel it to “god”?
I hear many of the same challenges to understanding the unknowable that I recall from my youth. My intent isn’t to load all the historical baggage of “god and religion” or the political “intelligent design” into this debate, but if there are parallels, then it seems like a worthy effort to make them. After all people have been discussing them, well, as long as we’ve been around.
April 30th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
Why use metaphors when you can make a new model that respects the fact that superintelligence is something qualitatively new, not just another theocratic hallucination?
April 30th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
Because the effort to understand the “unknowable” is common to the effort to “know god” and to walk away from some of the best minds in history seems presumptuous.
I read your statement that this is qualitatively new, but like I said the way I keep reading the description of this omnipotent and omniscient super-AI sounds an awful lot like how humanity has attempted to understand and view a diety for millenia.
Just a thought…
April 30th, 2007 at 10:51 pm
Given the concept that a superintelligent AI could take over the world and by extension the universe. Shouldn’t it have already happened?
That or the first AI MUST have already been friendly AI, right? That or there are no other human equivalent intelligences in the history of the universe.
I’m sure these aren’t original thoughts, but given the thread it took me there and I thought I’d just share where it took me.
May 1st, 2007 at 3:47 pm
Hawkeye,
One letter: c.
May 1st, 2007 at 8:29 pm
>Shouldn’t it have already happened?
>One letter: c.
This may just be wishful thinking, but I’m banking on the possibility that we’re the first civilization to reach the singularity stage. We don’t know how many civilizations there are out there, and we haven’t spotted any of their traces in space, so it’s a possibility, at the very least.
However, if the speed of light is indeed insurmountable and there are no ways of shortening long distance space travel, it’s possible some of the galaxies we’re observing are actually beyond the singularity, but the light from their present has some millions of years to reach us.
In that case, is it worth considering that they might have fleets of ships on their way to colonize the universe as we speak?
May 2nd, 2007 at 12:04 am
Even w/ c as the limiting factor isn’t it highly likely that some form of intelligence should have arisen long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away?
The universe wasn’t always as spread out as it is today. It seems that intelligence shouldn’t specifically require human form and life shouldn’t necessarily be limited to Carbon, water and our temperate zone relative to are sun… and even if it does those variables should have occurred before now.
Or like Jonathan said there are waves of seedling nanites hurtling through space right at just under the speed of light…
I’m pretty sure we’re not at the end of science and we’ll discover the universal theory of everything is just a blanket on top of the next universal theory. It’s like death and taxes. Each time we think we’ve arrived or arrival is just around the corner, we realize that the more we learn, the less we know.
May 3rd, 2007 at 1:50 am
Mike is it fair to compare AI to Odin?
*giggles*
May 5th, 2007 at 8:33 am
ForwardObserver wrote:
Depends entirely on the AI in question and its programming. There’s no generic AI that you can answer such questions on - an intelligence’s goal system can be as arbitrary as we can imagine.
Though we do know that notions such as honor or respecting treaties it has signed would have to be separately programmed into it, unless such behavior also served some other goal it was working on. By default a mind is indifferent towards everything, including human concepts like honor.
Jonathan Dotse wrote:
The problem is that a being’s behavior is always a function of both its own goal system and the environment it is in. Change the environment to something the designers hadn’t intended or tested it in, and things may go radically different.
Even if your AI was honed to work perfectly in a laboratory environment doesn’t necessarily mean that a different environment wouldn’t make it do something you simply hadn’t thought of, because you never expected it to end up in such an environment. And it will end up in an environment its engineers hadn’t anticipated for, because nobody can imagine all possible situations that a mind will end up in.
Thomas wrote:
Erroneous assumption. A mind can very well have an agenda without having its own survival as a supergoal. (Though its own survival will probably quickly become a subgoal.)
Hawkeye wrote:
This is not qualitatively different from the normal Fermi Paradox, only substituting an AI for any civilization.
I believe it’s been calculated (though I’m too lazy to dig up the reference) that even with the speed of light as a limit, given exponential growth, it would only take a small fraction of the universe’s current lifetime to colonize the entire galaxy.
May 5th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
You set a new standard for quote formatting!
May 5th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
Once I noticed I was going to quote multiple people in one comment, I thought I might as well go for clarity.
May 6th, 2007 at 1:29 am
> Erroneous assumption. A mind can very well have an agenda without having its own survival as a supergoal.
Yes, and it can have also no goal at all.
May 6th, 2007 at 6:31 am
Thomas wrote:
Well, sure. But in that case it would just be inert and not do anything at all.
May 6th, 2007 at 1:20 pm
Maybe you think, that the goal for a sorting algorithm is to sort the array?
Fine with me. In this case, the goal for a self improving program is to deliver an optimized source code of itself to a specified file.
How can we be wrong here?
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