10 Christian Questions Thursday, Jan 24 2008
random 12:14 pm
More than 1.6 billion, or roughly a quarter of the planet’s people are Christians. It is the world’s largest religion. I had some questions about Christianity I thought I would ask any Christians that read this. (Non-Christians can ignore this post if they’d like.)
1. Early Christians believe Christ would return quickly, within 1000 years or sooner. This is called millennialism. When do you believe Christ will return? Why is millennialism today associated with fundamentalism?
2. If God answers our prayers, shouldn’t it be easy to detect his presence by observing greater success in people achieving prayer-communicated desires over other desires? Can we design an experiment to confirm this?
3. Are evil people, like Hitler or other serial killers, evil solely due to their own dispositions, or is there some involvement from Satan? Are drug addictions and/or atheism due to Satan? Is there some test for determining the presence of Satan’s influence?
4. Conversely, are people good solely due to inspiration from God and/or Jesus Christ? Is it possible for an atheist, Jew, Muslim, etc. to have “holiness” even if they explicitly disavow your religion? Can they go to Heaven, even if they openly reject Jesus Christ?
5. I find the doctrine of original sin unfair. I do not feel accountable for what some ancient ancestor did. May I be absolved?
6. Can God speak to us through our prayers? How does he determine which people to speak to? When someone claims they spoke to God, how do we know they are telling the truth?
7. Do you plan to meet God when you go to Heaven? If you have ever had a mental scenario of what might happen, please describe it.
8. Will God ever kill Satan?
9. Will a large gold palace (New Jerusalem) really descend from the sky? If so, will non-Christians be allowed in?
10. Would it really be ideal for the entire planet to become Christian? Would the world be a better place?
Thank you for your answers.
Classic Christian responses (Note: I don’t agree with these.)
1. Mat. 24:36 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. (referring to the Apocalypse)
2. An old study showed that fertility treatment was twice as successful under prayer (for more, see http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/wirthstudy.html. Yes, Christians still cite this study.)
3. Satan is out to get you! Flee for your lives! Only the LORD can protect you!
4. Salvation through faith, not works. We are all sinners.
5. Ah, but you too have committed (victimless crime or trivial offense), and so you’re just as guilty.
6. You must feel it in your heart. Do not listen to Buddhists and Muslims who say they also feel it, using the exact same words.
7. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NDE
8. Souls are immortal and can never be ‘killed’ in the usual sense, but Satan will be thrown into a lake of fire along with all the sinners in the end of days (see Revelation).
9. All the non-Christians will be burning in the lake of fire, remember?
10. Of course. All goodness and light comes from Christianity.
I dont think Christians read your blog; We’re not idiots.
Q: What happens when you ask irrational people rational questions?
A: GIGO.
Re #2: Frances Galton, the father of psychometrics and the IQ test, performed a test where he had a chaplain pray for certain plots of land and not for others. There was no difference in how much food they yielded. He was a devout Christian but concluded that prayer makes no difference. Thus, they now rationalize that prayer is just a way of keeping in touch with God.
1) The 1000 years comes from a passage in St. John’s apocalypse which speaks of a millennium kingdom. The Catholic Church holds that all time since the Church has existed has been the millennium kingdom. But the faithful are to always act as if Christ’s coming is soon.
2) Christian doctrine holds he only answers prayers that are good for you (good in the Christian sense, not materially). So no there should be no such experiment.
3) Do you mean does Satan directly influence all such people? Not necessarily but he could. Satan is often said to influence such things because he was the first to sin, not because he forces people to sin. No there should be no way to test for his presence.
4) All good comes from God. Any good act you perform was enabled and came from him and this applies to all people. Possibly people could be saved without direct acknowledgment of Christ eg Old Testament prophets did not acknowledge him but made it to heaven. We don’t know who will be in heaven, only that the decision will be just.
5) Life isn’t fair. Baptism absolves you from original sin.
6) God can speak through prayer. How he chooses is unknown though most saints which claim the experience showed intense desire to be perfect and come to know God. You can’t tell for certain when a person has been spoken to by God. You can tell they are lying if they claim to have been told something known to be contrary to Natural Law. Outside of that there is no good way.
7) I hope, but can’t be certain. I have no mental scenario.
8) Unclear. Depends on the nature of Hell. If it is fire and brimstone then no. If it is separation from God then no. If it is the ceasing to exist then yes.
9) May or may not be a metaphor, hard to say. No because when the event (as is or what it represents) occurs all will be Christians .
10) Depends on if they are Christian in that they give lip service to the Church or if they actually follow the law. If it is the former then no it would be like today, the later then yes there would be no war, racism, poverty, etc.
(For Pippin: Yes Christians do read the blog we just ignore any aspects we find immoral and focus on the tech and science.)
If some Christians were to happen to come by and answer, would you promise to give up this by now extremely boring line of inquiry which has been followed to date by no less that lebenty-leben bloggers with nothing really original on their minds?
I mean I see this sort of blather all the time now and, although I am not a Christian by any means, it really gets tiresome. Dull, dull, dull.
A good question to ask yourself before engaging the keyboard is, “Has this subject BDTD or not?” Any answer that even touches on maybe is a yes.
Now, quite dwelling on the past and start accelerating towards the future.
Hi Michael. Here are the thoughts of a Mormon that also self-identifies as a Christian.
1) The return of Christ is associated with salvation, traditionally divided into physical salvation from pain and death and spiritual salvation from misery and hell. In the Mormon tradition, these forms of salvation are described in relation both to individuals and to communities, and the latter is associated with the Millennium. For individuals, Christ has already returned if Christ is in them, which is described as the “great mystery” by the Apostle Paul in the Bible. For our world community, Christ returns as peace and compassion (and freedom from abuse of ecclesiastical authority) permeate our cultures. Joseph Smith once claimed the Millennium would not come until we ceased arguing with each other and instead cultivated friendship. Will Jesus of Nazareth return? Will the dead rise from the graves? I hope so. To steal a phrase from the life extension crowd: it’s just an engineering problem — at least that’s my faith (of the non-passive sort). Will there be horrible wars and calamities prior to such a resurrection? I hope not, and advocate considering such prophecies to be warnings rather than infallible inevitabilities.
2) Our private prayers are most often (and most importantly) answered in their effects on our individual thoughts and behavior, and our public prayers are most often (and, again, most importantly) answered in their effects on our communal behavior. We are, indeed, the hands of heaven on earth. However, any neohuman that may be running our simulation (if the simulation hypothesis is true) could also listen and respond to our prayers. To the extent any of this has practical consequence (and I’m interested only to the extent of practical consequence), there are certainly ways of experimenting — indeed, the Bible advocates such experimentation (although from a rather pre-scientific epistemic paradigm, of course).
3) Satan is a meme. Mormon tradition teaches that Satan does not have a body, and has power over those with bodies only to the extent they allow it. This is interesting because we teach that Christ actually has a body, yet when the spirit of Christ is with us, we severally become saviours. Identifying corporeally with Christ is important to Mormon theology, whereas we relegate Satan to mere spiritual influence.
4) As explained in Mormon scripture, everyone goes to heaven that wants to go. Moreover, we’re already living in what Brigham Young called a “telestial” heaven, and we’ll not attain to any higher degree of heaven until we make it ourselves. To be inspired of Christ, or to have the spirit of Christ with us, is to act according to the Christ meme to the point of embodying Christ. Are we good solely due to inspiration? It is not so much a causal relation as a definitional relation. That which is good is of Christ.
5) Mormonism explicitly rejects the doctrine of original sin.
6) Everything in my response to #2 applies here.
7) My faith is to discover and join God to the extent she already exists, and to create and become her to the extent she does not yet exist. I have seen God in my family and friends. I have seen God in the world. I have seen God in me. I anticipate seeing God yet more fully manifest in all of these ways and others. In addition, I think I’d enjoy meeting (or doing something analogous to meeting) any neohuman that may be runing our simulation.
8) As a meme, Satan doesn’t have a body to kill. Beyond that, God oppresses only to the extent that there is no other way. In Mormon theology, God is not omnipotent in the classical sense, but rather operates within limitations. Sometimes there is no other way. Most of the time, there is another way, which is the ongoing reconciliation of conflicting desires — the eternal atonement of Christ.
9) If sufficiently empowered persons maintain such faith, it will most likely happen at some point. If they hate persons that do not identify as Christian simply because of their lack of identifying as Christians then I’ll consider them immoral.
10) The world would be a better place if we trusted in love sufficient to direct our transformation into benevolent beings. As we increase in power, individually and communally, only such love will save us from destroying ourselves. If that’s what it means for the entire planet to become Christian then I do think it would be ideal.
Another (Catholic) Christian here, linuxgeek71 covers things well.
My thought on question 3, although I haven’t looked into it, is that there must be some kind of “test for Satan” used by exorcists, or at least a test for alternate medical/psychological explanations. I found this on the net:
“The exorcist must demonstrate maximum circumspection and prudence, initially approaching the possessed person as he would anyone who suffers from physical or psychological illness. The exorcist decides whether a person is possessed after a diligent investigation, including extensive consultation, with spiritual, medical and psychological experts.
Signs of diabolic possession include the speaking of unknown languages, the knowing of distant or hidden things and the manifestation of abnormal physical strength. Yet each of these may be attributable to other causes and are not necessarily signs of diabolic possession. Thus, spiritual signs, such as an aversion for the name of God, the Holy Name of Jesus, the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Saints, the Church, the Word of God, the Church’s rites or sacramentals and sacred images must be taken into consideration along with the relationship of all these factors to the life of faith.
If it is determined that a person is not truly possessed the Church nonetheless provides appropriate spiritual help without a major exorcism. All must be done to avoid the perception that an exorcism is magic or superstition. Exorcisms should never be broadcast in any media and should be treated with proper discretion.”
When Jesus said to forgive your enemies, perhaps he had an inkling of what was to happen in his name. Perhaps he hoped that a new faith would arise, with more tolerance and forgiveness than the old faiths of the past. He could not have known what was going to happen…. I do not see how we can forgive those who would murder in the name of God, both past and present, and proclaim themselves righteous because of it.
“Signs of diabolic possession include…”
By these standards, I am probably possessed. Obviously, if I went through an exorcism, I would quit transhumanism and my other pursuits and go live in a McMansion with a wife and kids and a white picket fence. Never mind that people have been trying this (and a whole long list of other stuff) for hundreds of years and it never seems to work. I suppose I am lucky; back in the olden days, when exorcism didn’t work, they probably would have tortured me to repent or some such.
I don’t know that I’m a normal Christian (or a very good one) but here goes…
1) No specific time was ever given, so set dates are just wishful thinking. There’s a lesson there , though. Tomorrow may be too late; get things done now.
2) 100 years is an eyeblink from an eternal perspective. While God loves us, being a cosmic vending machine can’t be a useful activity. I doubt that there would be enough miracles to make scientific claims. Why build a watch if you have to keep prodding it all the time to keep it accurate? Prayer is far more about you and God than about you and the world. Besides, if praying was enough why would you need to act?
3) “The devil made me do it” is not valid. While some entity could be involved, you choose to act or not.
4) Since we are made in the image of God any individual can perform good actions. But you can’t be good enough (perfect), so that’s a red herring. Only God can save you, so that’s where you need to look. I expect to be very surprised at who I see in heaven.
5) You are not condemned for original sin, you are condemned for what you do. Original sin speaks of the propensities we inherit.
6) God always speaks, but we don’t usually listen. You have no way to know for sure if someone is speaking for God or not, but items like directly contradicting the Bible are a good tipoff. (The “God hates fags” church that I forget the name of comes to mind here)
7) No mental image. I doubt I have a valid frame of reference to make a reasonable picture.
8 ) Many interpretations there. The Bible describes Hell as “spiritual death”, but how that translates is a guess.
9)It’s a “new heaven and a new earth” so pick your laws of physics as to how it gets here. christian/non-christian is meaningless as this is after the judgement I believe.
10)Who decides who is Christian? Historically, the quality of individual Christians is inversely related to how accepted they are. Everyone saying “jesus saves” so they can be part of the in crowd would be a horrible thing. Christian as defined by the church in #6 wouldn’t be a holiday either.
Remember, I’m speaking as someone who is intrigued by transhumanism and hopes to live at least a few thousand years on this world, so I might not be what you are looking for in a Christian :)
linuxgeek71 covers the catholic angle perfectly.
Point 3 is very interesting because it relates to the question of free will and the personal choice between good and evil. Of course you first have to know the difference between good and evil in order to choose. That is where original sin comes into the picture … ;-)
Christian (Catholic) doctrine is a lot more sophisticated and intriguing than you might imagine (your questions unfortunately betray a rather shallow view on the topic ;-) ), Michael. It is well worth to delve into theology a bit, even or even especially so for a transhumanist. Why don’t you just start with e.g. Ratzinger’s (that is Pope Benedict now) “Introduction to Christianity”? It’s good reading.
Full disclosure (for my shamelessly biased praise of Catholicism): I converted from Lutheranism to Catholicism precisely on the question of “free will”.
#4
James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
#6
Perhaps God can be omnipresent for all prayers and contingencies through what Einstein termed ‘spooky action’.
http://www.ajcunet.edu/ ask these guys, you will not find a smarter group of Christians (or people).
Hopefully this will keep some xtians so busy they won’t have time to bash/lynch/shoot people who don’t agree with them and/or look like them.
You mean bash/lynch/shoot people who don’t agree with them like Mao & Stalin did? Oh wait…
I used to consider myself a pretty conservative Christian, although not quite a fundamentalist. My views have liberalized substantially over time. I am certain of fewer things than I used to be. Here are my answers to your questions.
1. Early Christians believe Christ would return quickly, within 1000 years or sooner. This is called millennialism. When do you believe Christ will return? Why is millennialism today associated with fundamentalism?
I have no idea when Christ will return. I generally live is if He will not be returning soon, although I think I’m prepared if He does.
2. If God answers our prayers, shouldn’t it be easy to detect his presence by observing greater success in people achieving prayer-communicated desires over other desires? Can we design an experiment to confirm this?
God is not like a genie, granting wishes to those who ask. I don’t claim to understand why some prayers that seem good to us don’t come to pass, but I believe God knows what is best and works through all things to bring about His will. I don’t think there is an empirical way to test this.
3. Are evil people, like Hitler or other serial killers, evil solely due to their own dispositions, or is there some involvement from Satan? Are drug addictions and/or atheism due to Satan? Is there some test for determining the presence of Satan’s influence?
I believe Satan wants to keep people from knowing the truth about God. People are capable of doing evil on their own, but I believe Satan and his demons intentionally tempt people, often in ways they know those people are weak.
4. Conversely, are people good solely due to inspiration from God and/or Jesus Christ? Is it possible for an atheist, Jew, Muslim, etc. to have “holiness” even if they explicitly disavow your religion? Can they go to Heaven, even if they openly reject Jesus Christ?
Anyone is capable of doing good. Through the internet I have gotten to know quite a few very good atheists. I don’t know who is going to heaven or hell. The Bible is actually a little vague on this point, and I think intentionally so. Getting to heaven, although it is the eventual end, is not the main point. Living in harmony with God and others every moment of every day is the goal.
5. I find the doctrine of original sin unfair. I do not feel accountable for what some ancient ancestor did. May I be absolved?
I agree that original sin is unfair. I believe God knew we would fail to live up to His standards, which is why He came to earth in human form and paid the price for our failures. That is how you can be absolved.
6. Can God speak to us through our prayers? How does he determine which people to speak to? When someone claims they spoke to God, how do we know they are telling the truth?
I believe God speaks to people, but I also believe people make up a lot of stuff. Some things people credit God for are obviously crap. If something is clearly good, I don’t know of any way to know if it is really from God or just someone claiming to hear from God.
7. Do you plan to meet God when you go to Heaven? If you have ever had a mental scenario of what might happen, please describe it.
I have no idea what it will be like, but I think I will meet God someday. The language used in the Bible to describe heaven is very metaphorical, which is necessary because it is so far outside of our own experience. I’ll find out when I get there.
8. Will God ever kill Satan?
The Bible says Satan will be cast into the lake of fire for eternity. I don’t know if this is the same as death, but I know he will be punished.
9. Will a large gold palace (New Jerusalem) really descend from the sky? If so, will non-Christians be allowed in?
I sincerely doubt a gold palace will descend from the sky. I don’t take imagery like that literally.
10. Would it really be ideal for the entire planet to become Christian? Would the world be a better place?
It depends on what you mean by “Christian”. What most people, particularly in the U.S., see as “Christian” is really just cultural and has little to do with Jesus. I think it would be great if everyone followed the teachings of Jesus.
Posting dutifully ignored. Refraining from any derisive comments.
“I believe God knew we would fail to live up to His standards, which is why He came to earth in human form and paid the price for our failures. That is how you can be absolved.”
I’ve always wanted a good explanation of how this is supposed to work, morally – how one (God-)person’s painful death can absolve everyone else, and why Christ’s death was necessary when God in His omnipotence could decree that everyone who repents goes to heaven. This seems obviously based on animal sacrifice (the “lamb of God”).
Michael, are you thinking of converting to xtianity?
As a previous “born-againer” who also spent time as at an episcopal church and an orthodox church, you could probably decide what answer you like best for your questions, then find a church that agrees with you. There are so many differing opinions and interpretations, even within the same church, that a solid answer is impossible.
I’ve posted this before, but it Doc S expresses what I believe better than I can.
“In some respects, science has far surpassed religion in delivering awe. How is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded; “This is better than we thought! The universe is much bigger than our prophets said – grander, more subtle, more elegant. God must be even greater than we dreamed”? Instead they say, “No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way!” A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by conventional faiths. Sooner or later, such a religion will emerge.” ~Carl Sagan
To put it bluntly, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all obsolete Metaphysical Operating Systems and need to be replaced.
Nick said “I’ve always wanted a good explanation of how this is supposed to work, morally”:
Actually, substitutionary atonement happens every day on a minor scale. If a 16 year old is given a ticket for speeding, is it immoral for his father to pay the ticket? After all, the debt belongs to the driver.
Of course in a sinful world you can’t take this very far, as an individual could be coerced into paying a criminal’s death. But the principle is already out there.
Michael quoted Sagan:
I agree with Mr Sagan completely. The heaven’s declare the glory of the Lord, so the bigger they more of a point they make. I’m reminded of a verse (Can’t remember which at the moment) that in the KJV says “before the world was”. The actual Greek word is Chronos, but the translators changed it because they couldn’t comprehend time beginning. Another example of small thinking where it doesn’t belong.
As for your comments, I don’t agree so much. :)
“To put it bluntly, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all obsolete Metaphysical Operating Systems and need to be replaced.” — Michael Varian Daly
Unfortunately, the great majority of the human race still embraces bronze age thinking. No need for a Metaphysical OS upgrade. They won’t be prepared for the Rapture [of the Nerds, i.e. "the Singularity"].
For those that believe in the absolute of reason and science, and view God and religion as simply outmoded and outdated thinking, you’d do well to remember Kant’s argument on the Fallacy of the Enlightenment. (See here for a fairly decent explanation http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1017/p09s06-coop.html)
Unwavering belief in science and reason bares little difference to the unwavering belief fundamentalists exhibit, and generally leads to very similar problems IMO. Some tolerance, and acceptance of the fact that we are incapable of knowing or explaining reality would go a long way in getting us to a future that is not only amazing, but enjoyable for everyone.
Anyway, just my 2c. (Oh, for the record, I’m a non-dogma semi-doctrinal agnostic theist, with Christian overtones, if that makes sense.)
2. If God answers our prayers, shouldn’t it be easy to detect his presence by observing greater success in people achieving prayer-communicated desires over other desires? Can we design an experiment to confirm this?
The prayer communicated desire that seems to be granted is the desire to grow in understanding. It seems to be the wish that resonates with the will of God. I see our growth in understanding (of our self, others and the world around us) as pointing the way to God, and the pace is picking up. God’s will is the same as IBM’s Artificial General Intelligence (AGI) lab. Build a continuously learning thing that matches its creator, A Son of God so to speak. God and IBM do not want a program that is destructive. Since extreme intelligence is the ultimate creative/destructive power, it has to be a loving understanding creative program (Christ-like aka Christian) or that world ceases to exist. The experiment you are asking for is the AGI work that is going on now. These engineers are resorting to terms like faith, belief, forgiveness and desire to design AGI. So In this way, Christ seems to be the foundation of a rational universe. The rational universe is the kind of experimental data that some call the natural revelation of God.
I am a Christian but have two main problems with it. One, if you are a five year old living in Africa and die having never even heard the words “Jesus Christ” most Christians believe you are going straight to hell. Straight to hell for eternity. Thats pretty sick and sadistic. Also, no matter who you are lets say you go to hell. You are there for eternity. That is messed up. Most people have no concept of eternity. It is not just a really long time.
So to use a metaphor from the earthly perspective. A 18 year old has sex before being married. Jesus Christ returns, walks into the room. Puts the kid in solitary prison, hooks him up to iv’s to keep him alive and tortures him for the next 80 years until he dies and lets just say it is in a pitch black room. Now that is not good enough for God he uses “magic”, aka nano-tech, To keep this up for 5000 years. So the kid is 5000 years old and has no recollection of what his name used to be much less that he had sex. Then god says, now to really make this even lets keep it up for ETERNITY. Then the devil says cool with me I will am not bored with this yet. Wow. Sorry for the rambling nature of my post. Please tell me your thoughts anyone.
I would currently describe myself as agnostic, but I grew up as a protestant Christian and know most of the basic theological (at least those for midwest protestantism) answers to your questions.
1. I don’t really have an answer for this one.
2. The standard answer here would be that God does not always answer your prayers in the ways you expect, or that he does not always answer our requests with an affirmative. For instance, if you prayed for a loved one to recover from an illness and they died and you met a new partner several years down the road, many Christians would say that that was God’s answer to your prayer.
3 & 4 These are a fundamental parodox of Christian theology. Even those who adhere to the same denomination will debate fiercely for hours whether or not man is pre-destined or if he was given free will.
5. No you may not, at least that is the perspective of the church. It does not matter if it is unfair or not. Besides, by the time you have the cognitive powers to make this decision you will have already sinned countless times, making it kind of a moot point.
6. Different denominations believe different things. Charismatics would obviously say that yes he does speak to us. Most modern protestant churches, while accepting these phenomena in the Bible, do not believe that it happens today. However, they will not outright dismiss the possibility and many prefer to believe that god speaks through signs.
7. Don’t really have an answer for this one.
8. In Christian theology souls are immortal, only the body dies. Presumably the souls of angels and demons are immortal as well. So in this sense you can’t really kill a Satan, although theologically it’s certainly not beyond God’s ability.
9. Yes to the first part, no to the second part.
10. This is a difficult one. You have to realize that many Christians don’t really regard each other as “true Christians”. For instance, to most protestants Mormons and Catholics are not really Christians and preach flawed theology (primarily that you can reach heaven through your own actions). Aside from that though, a lot of Christians would say that yes, the world would be a better place. However, theologically it really wouldn’t. The main thrust of Christian theology is that all are sinners and the only way into heaven is through God’s grace. So technically, it isn’t any better or worse for the rest of us if you’re a Christian or not because you’re still a sinner.
You’ll notice that a lot of these answers are kind of vague or not really answers at all, which is part of the reason I don’t really consider myself a Christian anymore. If you really could answer questions like #2, then the issue of religion would be a whole lot clearer and wouldn’t require any faith. Again, this is primarily why I don’t adhere to any of this anymore. The main requirement is that you have to believe in something completely with almost no, or limited, concrete evidence.
Michael,
That was the funniest thing I’ve read all morning. Thanks for making me smile. I’ll have the kettle on when we meet in hell..
Sidney
Way to go, Michael: Hold their feet to the falsificationist flames (as it were). My position can be pretty well summed-up with: Panentheistic Mind-of-God cosmology (see Simon Young’s discussion in *Designer Evolution*, as well as the work of James N. Gardner) tempered with the work(s) of George Smith, Quentin Smith, Michael Martin, and Jeffrey Grupp (among many others, of course…) ;)
Death to all Fanatics!!
Live Long & Prosper, all… ;)
A TEST FOR SATAN
I think the two fellows above are either afraid of, or completely ignore the possibility of an afterlife. Think about it, what if there really was an afterlife? I think you would be ashamed of your profound ignorance, trapped forever in your failed convictions. Your only hope would be for another try at understanding ultimate good and evil.
Michael asks: Are evil people, like Hitler or other serial killers, evil solely due to their own dispositions, or is there some involvement from Satan? Are drug addictions and/or atheism due to Satan? Is there some test for determining the presence of Satan’s influence?
Well, we agree Hitler was evil. Welcome to the club of common Aesthetics, values, judgments of sentiment, and taste where;
Evil is a broad term used to indicate anything which injures or hinders the moral or ethical norm[s] or ideal[s].
And where the highest Good is the singular and most ultimate end which human beings ought to pursue. This turns out to be The Glory of God.
Well, The struggle for life is the “test for satan”.
Why should God create a world in which there is evil and things to fear? It is because; fear is a necessary motivator for life. And fear is the compliment of the highest good; called the Glory of God. For the finest experience we place ourselves Between “The Fear and The Glory of God”.
If the two fellows above should die today find themselves in an afterlife they never expected, then I suggest; Master your fear, be in peace, and turn to the Glory. In such a state spirit is roused to a passion. The power of passion is sufficient to transcend your condition.
How much do you live? It depends on your motivator and your goals. There will come a time when humanity will be faced with the ultimate fear and glory, Turn to the glory.
I do and it is way cool !!
We have lived in a world where what you’d believe would only matter if it caused you to pick fights because of it. Though bit parts of the world are still that way, in the near future belief systems will cause increasing conflicts. While christians will blame this on the influence of Satan and all that excuse crap, the decision to believe will cause increasing conflicts.
Right now religious nutcases think they can go on consuming and breeding cause the sky daddy said so in this book. People with other ideas preach the urgency to plan ahead, restrict consumption patterns, lay of the damn pollution and tone down on the imperial wars.
Especially the discussion between people who have this religious urgency to breed and people who have this religious urgency to save the damn planet will play out on this world, and pretty soon.
The choices of religion will be put to the test. Is it all fantasy or does the sky daddy concept really hold water.
Nick asked:
I’ve always wanted a good explanation of how this is supposed to work, morally – how one (God-)person’s painful death can absolve everyone else, and why Christ’s death was necessary when God in His omnipotence could decree that everyone who repents goes to heaven.
I see the story of Jesus more about God experiencing our struggles and lowering Himself in order to raise us up. It’s not like a third party was employed to take the punishment for us. God Himself decided to take responsibility for our crimes. The party being offended took the blame for the offense. I think this is a much healthier way to look at it than the old “Substitutionary Atonement” idea.
As a Christian I’d like to reaffirm what linuxgeek71 said in post 5. Also, to any non-Christians reading this thread, I’d like to apologize for any comments or statements (from any of us) that might have seemed hostile or demeaning. It’s not easy for any Christian to consistently follow the teachings of Christ without succumbing to our own human nature and tendencies now and again. Believe me I have many I’m not proud of and it’s a constant battle.
But I really don’t think God is concerned or particularly impressed with how logical or intelligent any of us are. What it simply boils down to is that none of us are worthy of eternal salvation, he loves us, and so much so that His Son Christ died in our place so that we could be saved.
This blog offers a lot of compelling things to ponder and chew on and certainly delves into a lot of interesting topics. I enjoy reading many of the posts, though don’t visit all that often.
May God be with each and every one of you no matter where you are.
ALL OF YOUR QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED,
Please take the time to “unzip” the following. It is VERY COMPRESSED.
Tap into the Social Capital offered by Christianity. As Michael said; “More than 1.6 billion, or roughly a quarter of the planet’s people are Christians. It is the world’s largest religion.” The Christian ethic and traditions Michael questions are responsible for western civilization and the technology it yields. We would not be talking about a technological singularity without the roman adoption of Christianity.
Christianity is a very resilient perennial philosophy. It changes with the times. Here is the irony: the missing piece we Transhumanist need is found amid the Christian ideas we have grown to question. Michael’s questions are answered with pattern of thought called Christian Transhumanism;
Life is action moving in the continuum of a self consistent strange loop. In this strange loop of space-time, all things are gathered up and all things are created in The Christ Singularity. Christ closes the loop, and completes the circuit. Let there be light!
You are this entire continuum, or only a part of this continuum, or none of this continuum… your choice. This means you and I are free to take a transcendent viewpoint of the strange loop, or immerse ourselves to whatever degree in the strange loop. With this freedom you can see that there is… and there is not: free will, evolution, and necessary works of mankind. Evil, Good, and Holy are relative terms that make the difference necessary for a meaningful life. You can consider yourself a co-creator, or an impartial inactive observer. I am describing the God within us and the God outside, transcendent.
With this pattern of thought you can remove yourself from chaos creating arguments, arguments responsible for wars and misery. You have authentically changed your state of mind. You understand the way, the life, and the truth. For those that have it, more will be given. It is a richly rewarding pattern of thought.
Love, forgiving, worship, and the Holy Spirit have technical analogues. See http://www.Technical-jesus.com. They make the way into post humanity.
You can hasten progress toward our goals by forgiving, and deciding not to ignore truth or possibility wherever it may be. As Michael said; “More than 1.6 billion, or roughly a quarter of the planet’s people are Christians. It is the world’s largest religion.” That is a bunch of social capital!
i have a question… asked probably a million times and i allways get the same response. maybe somebody has a fresh response. first of all i am not asking this question as a christian or an athiest just someone that isnt sure… if there is a god or if there is a god then that it is who the bible depicts him as. i dont want to offend anyone with anything i say and am completly open to any arguments all i ask is that u give me an answer from ur heart and not from ur pastor because i have been to church and know all the stories….
first how do we know that there is a god without using the bible as a reference …. now i get lots and lots of the same answer on this question so i will share with u some of the answers i have gotten and give u my rebutals to save time. some say that i am “starting a foundation for an argument while taking the christians foundation away” but i am just trying to grasp how we can trust a book that is written by man (fact) … yes maybe “inspired word of god” but where is the proof for that. i know of lots of books that claime to be something that they arent…. then some will say that the bible is the most accurate historical document. (maybe a fact. not sure) but even if it is fact.. just because someone is the best liar in the world should i still believe him. Then some will say and this is my favorite “you just have to have faith”…” god is testing u” or something along those lines…. now i served in the marines and went to iraq and witnessed first hand an amazing faith from men that did not believe in the christian god and not only devoted there life to there religion but blew themselves up because they beleived in what they were doing… what makes them less worthy of gods gift of eternal life?
another question is …. if there is a god then how do we know he is who he says he is…. this is a little story ive allways thought of…. There is this king who owns a great nation and has many people under his power. and he has 3 different parts to his kingdom 1 part is just a regular place of living where people go about there lives how ever they choose 2nd part is a beatifull place full of all the ritch clothing a feast for meals and beautifull mansions. 3rd place is a place where people are tortured untill they are almost about to die and then brought back to life only so they can do it to them again and again… now this king has made it clear to the people in the 1st part of his kingdom that they may choose to live there lives however they want….. but if they dont live there lives to glorify him then they will go to the 3rd place. but if they do they will go to the 2nd place. the king has created all of these places both good bad and regular….
to me i would view this king as a selfish and self glorify pompous jerk who created a nation around trapping people into praising him on there own “free will” now to me if we are held to the standard of being selfless then where is his selflessness….
now i know that many christians will take offense to this. and i in no way shape or form meant to disrespect anyone only maybe get some questions answered for myself. and maybe make some christians ask themselves some questions that they think is wrong to ask… but i am a firm believer that god if he is who he says he is.. wants us to seek the truth and not just live a life in ignorant obedience. thank you and i am sorry for the lack of spelling and grammar… haha
James McLean Ledford,
That’s a gem. If I don’t believe what one (James McLean Ledfored) says I should believe then it is I who am wrong. (and in true peril by all accounts)
Well, I am not going to believe and you can’t make me. So There!
Sidney
Sidney, It’s ok man. My wife and two daughters don’t believe me. hehe!
For Kevin,
He asks,”How do we know that there is a GOD without using the bible as a reference?”
How do you know there is magnetism and a north pole? Really… think about it; do you believe in magnetism? Of course. You pull out a compass. The compass senses something you cannot without sensory augmentation. We rely on many types of sensors, like a thermometer or a barometer that tells the weather to come.
The God sensor is evolution, The majority of Christians believe in evolution no matter what the seculars want to profess. Ask yourself, since you visit a Transhumanist website…where are we “Trans-humanising “to? Where is evolution going? Transhumanist will tell you there is going to be an intelligence explosion. The mysteries will become the food. We will intelligently evolve towards a supreme state of being, and a perfect state of mind…commonly known as GOD. Transhumanism is at the tip of the needle pointing the way. So, all you have to do is be optimistic about life. The positive outcome is GOD: A super intelligent and all powerful creator of all things including GOD.
As for your second question..the Hindus are right in telling you there are many lesser gods on the way. There is more on http://www.hyper-evolution.com
pippen saith: “I dont think Christians read your blog; We’re not idiots.”
1. No apostrophe in don’t.
2. Random pointless use of semi-colon.
3. Obviously, if the writer is a Christian, at least one is indeed reading the blog.
Postulations: Either the writer closes with an ironically idiotic claim that is wholly contradicted by the foregoing, or the post was just a syntactic sardonic snippet in the first place. :-)
In either event, I have to get back to cleaning the lint out of my navel now, so sorry for the abrupt departure.
In any event, keep having fun, folks! Radical life extension will totally suck if we can’t at least keep that aspect more or less intact.
Made-up stories by confused, simple, ignorant people. Nothing to discuss. Never was.
If you discuss, you just add to the confusion. So don’t. Ever. Silence is golden. Silence about untrue and stupid things is platinum.
One day every tongue will confess and every knee will bow.. Jesus, the son of man and of God, is Lord.
Everyone has the resources to see the Truth.
Although I am choosing not to argue at this time, I will not be silenced.
Jesus is Lord.
-a very complex minded, simple ruled, Christian.
1. Early Christians believe Christ would return quickly, within 1000 years or sooner [Probably every generation of Christians believe that Christ would return in their lifetime]. This is called millennialism [This definition of Christian millennialism is incorrect]. When do you believe Christ will return?[The Christian holy writings say that only the Father of the Godhead knows the time (time being relative in its scope)] Why is millennialism today associated with fundamentalism? [All strands of Christianity have a belief about the Millenniam, there are different strands of fundamentalism and therefore different beliefs concerning the Millennium.]
2. If God answers our prayers, shouldn’t it be easy to detect his presence by observing greater success in people achieving prayer-communicated desires over other desires? Can we design an experiment to confirm this? [If God were a machine, or responded to formulas, then the answer would be 'yes.' There are other theological concepts that come into play when petitioning God for a desired response to a request. He has the option to remain silent, or answer according to a timing preferred by him. You can run an experiment on predicting the patterns of wind and maybe get some degree of accuracy, but my best guess is that God's decision making is a little bit more complex.]
3. Are evil people, like Hitler or other serial killers, evil solely due to their own dispositions, or is there some involvement from Satan? [Could be their own disposition, or Satanic involvement mixed in as well.]
Are drug addictions and/or atheism due to Satan? [No, humans can pretty much get addicted to drugs in and of themselves. And, atheism is a lot of times people being angy with what life has thrown at them.]
Is there some test for determining the presence of Satan’s influence? [Is there a test for determing every scientific theory? Only hypothetically.]
4. Conversely, are people good solely due to inspiration from God and/or Jesus Christ? [No person is good/holy in and of themselves. A person is deemed holy in the sight of God when Christ's holiness is bestowed upon that person.]
Is it possible for an atheist, Jew, Muslim, etc. to have “holiness” even if they explicitly disavow your religion? [According to the biblical definition of "holiness," the answer is no. No human being other than Christ has ever been holy in and of themselves.]
Can they go to Heaven, even if they openly reject Jesus Christ? [Micha-el, you aren't that ignorant, you know the answer to some of these questions.]
5. I find the doctrine of original sin unfair. I do not feel accountable for what some ancient ancestor did. May I be absolved? [Well, I don't feel like paying for the national debt that's being accumulated. You think Uncle Sam will absolve me from paying it? Original Sin doesn't set too well with me either. I'm going to give Adam a good kick in the nuts when I get to heaven.]
6. Can God speak to us through our prayers? [He can communicate because of our prayers.]
How does he determine which people to speak to?[You got me.]
When someone claims they spoke to God, how do we know they are telling the truth? [We don't, unless they say something very specific, and it actually happens.]
7. Do you plan to meet God when you go to Heaven?[Uh, no. I'll be to busy looking for Adam to kick him in the nuts.]
If you have ever had a mental scenario of what might happen, please describe it. [I guess the cloud and harp image would be too interesting.]
8. Will God ever kill Satan? [Kill refers to a person that is inside a physical body. I guess the Anti-Christ might meet this requirement, so then the answer would be yes.]
9. Will a large gold palace (New Jerusalem) really descend from the sky? [Some take iterpret the writings of this event literally, and some view it as a figurative theological image. We will have to wait and see.]
If so, will non-Christians be allowed in? [Probably not.]
10. Would it really be ideal for the entire planet to become Christian?
[Yes it would be idea for every human to be a Christian, but that is for each person to decide for themselves what they believe abou t the afterlife.]
Would the world be a better place? [Hypothetically better, but not a perfect place.]
Generic ultram….
Is there a generic form of ultram. Generic ultram….