Christianity

Here is an image that is practically guaranteed to be offensive to all Christians. If you’re a Christian that likes the futurist material on this blog and doesn’t care for mockery/criticism of your religion, skip it. Here is the atheist version.

It says the following, but using common terms instead of Christian terms:

“The belief that Jesus can make you live forever if you participate in Holy Communion and accept him as your Lord and Savior, so he can grant you freedom from Original Sin because Eve was convinced by Satan to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.”

The linked material is a pithy image posted to prompt questioning of the foundations of a popular world religion. If you’re offended, ask yourself, “why am I receptive to criticism of everything but my religion?”

This image isn’t new, and I believe it originated on 4chan, but what’s interesting is that now it appears in the top Google image search results for “Christianity”.

For information on what the 2008 US presidential candidates think about secularism and atheism, see Austin Cline on About.com.

Comments

  1. Martin

    And look at what the first picture is.

  2. Well…that’s offensive.

    Some of us are Christians and do support the Lifeboat cause as well as improving the human condition. Don’t know why we get attacked as a group instead of just the ones that attack others – sort of like bashing all atheists without getting to know one.

    Scott

  3. Do you deny that this is what Christianity is about? How is this bashing, instead of just describing the theology using different words?

    The belief that some cosmic Jewish Zombie (Jesus) can make you live forever (Heaven) if you symbolically eat his flesh (Communion) and telepathically tell him (through prayer) that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force (Origin Sin) in your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman (Eve) was convinced by a talking snake (Satan) to eat from a magical tree (Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil).

    Would you be offended if it said:

    “The belief that Jesus can make you live forever if you participate in Holy Communion and accept him as your Lord and Savior, so he can grant you freedom from Original Sin because Eve was convinced by Satan to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.”

    I know plenty of Christians, and respect some. But I feel sad that intelligent people can believe things based on faith (wishful thinking) rather than evidence outside the Bible.

    Why is extinction risk an issue to Christians? In the Bible, it makes it obvious that millions of people are alive during the events of Revelation, so obviously humanity won’t be wiped out until the End Times.

    And how come I accept any and all criticism of my beliefs, but Christians get all huffy when their theology is questioned?

    Nothing I say on my private blog reflects the opinions of any outside entity or affiliated organization.

  4. The reason it’s a top result in Google is that sites (like this) link to it. The more interesting thing is that, given the unusually high percentage of Internet content creators with training in abstract thinking skills, an extraordinarily shallow interpretation of Christianity receives so much attention. I’m sure most of the persons who perpetuate such interpretations are completely aware that they are not only exagerations, but also inaccurate characterizations. This seems to me to be driven mostly by arrogance or hatred, and the desire to distinguish themselves from what they perceive to be the foolishness of an average Christian. As Transhumanism increases in influence, and the average education of self-identified Transhumanists decreases, Transhumanism will receive more attention like this. The Nietzschean lions will have it no other way.

  5. Michael, although I found some humor in the image, I do want to point out that your question (“How is this bashing . . . ?”) is disingenuous. An intelligent person, like yourself, is certainly aware that using “Zombie” to characterize the center of another’s faith risks being commonly perceived as bashing.

    And, by the way, so far as I am concerned, you are a person of faith, every bit as much as or more than any Christian I know. Nowhere in the definition of “faith” does it necessitate irrationality, disregard for evidence, textual dogmatism, or disdain for knowledge. All of this may accompany faith to varying extents in all of us, but should not be confused with faith. Your intent, as it is, to shape the future, is faith.

  6. Lincoln,

    I’m familiar with more subtle and sophisticated interpretations of Christianity, most obviously because I was raised a Christian. I just thought this was a concise image that throws the pretention off of Christianity’s code words.

    You imply that the content here is an inaccurate characterization, but how?

    There is no arrogance or hatred in my heart. Anyone can believe in whatever they want, and for every flaw I see in others, I can see five in myself. This is simply a memetic battle that is generally in favor of dispassionate rationality.

    If I were an honest Christian, I would say, “Yes, we believe exactly that, but I resent the connotations of the words chosen.”

    The Internet is stupid. Just look at the comments on popular sites like Digg and Fark.

    The average education of transhumanists doesn’t seem likely to decrease anytime soon. As transhumanism becomes more popular, it will be more open to shallow interpretations, but, of course, I’m ready.

    If you really had an argument to make against this image, you’d make it, not just complain about it. If the truth is so self-evident, say the string of words that makes it self-evident.

  7. Except for the word “zombie”, I don’t see how it would necessarily be offensive. The rest is just using common language to refer to code-word dogma. “Zombie” in this context is simply used to refer to someone coming back from the dead, and in popular culture, “zombie” is common usage. It helps bring up questions like, “why didn’t Jesus rot during those days he was dead in the tomb?” You can’t explain away everything with some generalized Holy Aura.

    There is ample evidence that Christianity should be treated the same way as the thousands of other mythologies around the world: fictional. Why do you accept Christianity but reject these thousands of other religions?

  8. Len

    Dude, I’m out. I read your blog for a while but no more.

  9. The self-evident truth, Michael, is that anyone so intellectually insane to set himself up as a “transhumanist” is not only arrogant but also, well, subhuman in some important regard. It’s almost as if something went wrong early on and you’ve never managed to get back to the straight way. And now you are so far off course, you think the course actually leads somewhere.

    If you really can’t see how the offense is generated, there’s no help for you. One can’t straighten a well-bent soul. Not from the outside, at least.

    It’s like, to paraphrase Eliot, “you had the experience but missed the meaning.”

  10. Vanderleun,

    How come I can question someone’s taste in music or food, their philosophical beliefs, political orientation, or favorite city, and not come across as arrogant, but when I question their religion, I’m the world’s biggest asshole?

    It’s because religious people use a double standard depending on whether the questioning is about their religion or something else.

    Of course I can see why the offense is generated. It’s because Christian leaders tell their followers that the Bible is self-evidently true, and questioning its content is forbidden.

  11. Michael, this image is not concise, both because of what it includes of mockery and what it excludes of acknowledgement. There is more to the Christian idea of salvation than symbolic flesh eating and telepathic acceptance of another’s mastery, even if we adjust the words to be less offensive to the average Christian. Faith, hope, charity, grace and works, and their interpretation within the context of varying Christologies, each play important roles. I’m sure you, as a former Christian, know this. You contend in your post that you would, if still Christian, acknowledge believing exactly what the image suggests, but I don’t think you’ve thought about it much.

    I have not observed in your words regarding religion anything I would characterize as hatred, but I have observed arrogance. Personally, that hasn’t bothered me because I think I know where you’re coming from, and recognize in you many fine qualities that I value more highly than your perspective on religion. However, the arrogance is there. You do, indeed, evidence something of an attitude of superiority toward religious persons. I think you know and feel that, too. This is just my honest observation. Please take from it, mostly, that I admire and respect you generally.

    I’m not sure what you are requesting in this paragraph: “If you really had an argument to make against this image, you’d make it, not just complain about it. If the truth is so self-evident, say the string of words that makes it self-evident.” Please elaborate, and I’ll respond.

    I agree that Christianity should be treated as mythology, in the formal sense of that word. I also agree that there are fictional aspects to mythology, but that description of mythology also falls short of adequately describing the phenomenon. You asked why I accept Christianity, but reject thousands of other mythologies. The answer is that I don’t indiscriminately reject any mythology, and particularly not the most ancient of which we are aware. To the contrary, as I have become familiar with them, each has contributed to my faith in varying ways. I see God manifest in them generally and progressively, albeit imperfectly, as I suspect will always be the case.

  12. Michael, while I strongly disagree with Vanderleun’s assessment of your character, I’ll take a shot at responding to the questions you posed to him.

    You come across as arrogant in your approach to religion because you don’t approach it in the same manner as you would someone’s taste in music or food. I fear, though, that this mention of arrogance is being weighted too strongly when describing you, and that’s probably now my fault. Sorry.

    Regarding the Bible, it is inaccurate that all Christian leaders tell their followers that it is self-evidently true, and that questioning its contents is forbidden. That may have been how you were raised, but not all of us were, and not all of us regard the Bible in that manner.

  13. Lincoln,

    You are the most rational Christian I’ve ever met, to the point where I challenge anyone to find another as rational as you. If you were brought up in a secular household, I’ll bet you’d be just as atheistic as many of us.

    “Faith, hope, charity, grace and works”: these are all important, but Christianity is rooted in the dogma around the mythological stories. You can’t get more fundamental than Genesis.

    I think that any questioning of Christianity would be considered arrogant by many. But arrogance derives from a need to feel better about myself (by attacking others), which I don’t particularly have. I’m secure enough in my own beliefs and ideas that intellectual bullying is unnecessary to boost my ego. I just have an interest in promoting my own ideas to the detriment of competing ideas. Specifically, I think Christianity encourages persecution of homosexuality, dehumanization of non-Christians, dividing thought into sacred (unquestionable) and secular (questionable) spheres, among other ill effects.

    When I say, “If you really had an argument to make against this image, you’d make it, not just complain about it. If the truth is so self-evident, say the string of words that makes it self-evident”, I’m saying, why should this simple image be a threat, if the Word of God is self-evident? You’d be able to merely copy and paste the relevant lines from Genesis and it would be enough to knock down any mockery or criticism.

    Regarding the Bible, it is inaccurate that all Christian leaders tell their followers that it is self-evidently true, and that questioning its contents is forbidden

    This is 99.9% of all Christians. Mormonism might be different because it represents such an extreme break from traditional Christianity that it accepts greater questioning of the original Bible. But still, Mormonism contains thick appeals to Stone Age Biblical authorities. For instance, parts of The Pearl of Great Price are supposedly translated from long-lost papyrus that Joseph Smith just happened to get ahold of? Come on.

  14. But arrogance derives from a need to feel better, which I don’t particularly have.

    If that were remotely true, Michael, you wouldn’t be a transhumanist. :)

    That being said; perhaps, Michael, your comments here would be more powerfully expressed if you were to do a series of articles, each on a different religion?

    I only say that because when you address Christianity as a non-singular entity it really defrays the “he’s attacking me!!” context of the position statement.

    Take, for example, the question of whether or not the term “zombie” is offensive. Like it or not, that’s really irrelevant: the term is //accurate//, and the reactions to it only serve to illustrate your point. I have, over time, detected something of a persistent meme of anti-christian sentiment in your writings, one that due to its focus on //christians// seems too insular to be fully unbiased (hence why I suggested taking on other religions, however minor — so long as there’s a sizeable population that still worships at that altar.)

    I’ve always found that 4chan ‘inspirational poster’ to be quite amusing. The reaction of your christian readership to it is somewhat disappointing, but by no means surprising.

    Wow, that’s a lot of words for saying pretty much nothing.

  15. Michael, if I were brought up in an secular household, I would not be who I am.

    Of course, some will consider any questioning of their preferred ideologies arrogant. I agree with that. I’ll drop the question your personal attitude toward religion, but without retracting the moderated observations mentioned above.

    You mention that you consider Christianity an idea that competes with your own. I don’t know all of your ideas, but see no necessary competition between your Transhumanist ideas and some authentic interpretations of Christianity. Christianity encourages persecution of homosexuality only to the same extent that it once encouraged slavery, and neither is essential to its message — indeed, arguably both are contrary to its message, consistently applied. Christianity dehumanizes non-Christians only to the extent that any other ideology might be used to dehumanize others; however, to the extent Christianity is being used for such dehumanization, it is in direct opposition to broad understandings of teachings ascribed to Jesus. Christianity creates sacred thought, as you suggest, but such thought, as advocated by the Bible (despite some Christians’ behavior), should be quite as filled with questions as any other form of thought.

    The image will be perceived as threatening for varying reasons, depending on the particular Christian. Some may fear what God might think of such an image. Others may fear how it reminds them of their own uncertainties. Yet others may feel that it is disrespectful of something intimate, perhaps analogous to posting to the Internet naked pictures of someone without his consent. For me, it’s not so much any of those, except to the extent that I’m aware of such feelings in others; there’s some tension, as I try to look through many sets of eyes reading the image with humor, sadness, anger, confusion, apathy, and so on. I don’t see what this has to do with Genesis, despite your suggestion; citing scripture passages seems to have little constructive effect in response to antagonism toward the value of a religion.

    I disagree with your estimation that 99.9% of all Christians consider the Bible self-evidently true and unquestionable; but I do think too many consider the Bible in such a manner. You are correct that Mormonism appeals extensively to sources that purport to be ancient. While I don’t know of sufficient evidence for or against the historical claims (they are more complicated than most protagonists or antagonists will acknowledge), Mormonism does hold that scripture (the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or otherwise) is not infallible and is subject to revision. Here’s an illustrative quote on that matter from the second leader of the LDS Church, Brigham Young:

    “Should the Lord Almighty send an angel to re-write the Bible, it would in many places be very different from what it now is. And I will even venture to say that if the Book of Mormon were now to be re-written, in many instances it would materially differ from the present translation. According as people are willing to receive the things of God, so the heavens send forth their blessings. If the people are stiff-necked, the Lord can tell them but little.” (Journal of Discourses 9: 311)

    In this, however, Mormons are not unique. There are other Christian denominations, and many individual Christians, that think similarly, and are willing to look at scriptural texts with a combination of both faith and criticism.

  16. Carl Shulman

    “You are the most rational Christian I’ve ever met, to the point where I challenge anyone to find another as rational as you.”
    Easily done: http://www.utilitarian-essays.com/

  17. Michael, it’s a lost battle, from the beginning. You can’t argue with Christians (or any other religious type) about their faith, because, well, it’s their faith and they’re so impregnated with it that they’ll take it as an attack on their very being. Question the faith and the man/woman behind it think you question their person.

    For the sake of impartiality, though, let me present you with this image, which is the response on what you posted: http://derekstwistedmind.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/atheism.png

  18. Michael, I wish to call your attention on the fact that here you sound a bit like Carrico in his anti-transhumanist writings.

    Please criticize Christians for what they _do_. And sadly they have done many bad things (like most religious or political groups). But do not criticize them for what they believe, because that is not your business or mine.

    The Mormon Transhumanist Association is a good example of how intelligent persons can try to concile Christianity and Transhumanism. And even among the majority of Christians who have never heard of Transhumanism there are many decent and intelligent people who do their best to try making the world a better place.

    I could agree with some of your negative judgments of Christians, but what damage do they do to you, or to me, or to the outcomes we wish to see? Let them be.

  19. Jordan

    @Lincoln, while there are plenty of liberal Christians I believe the majority do in fact believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible and would most likely regard you as mislead at best, not even Christian at worst.

    Personally I was raised in a reform Jewish community where the Torah (Bible) was taken on an implied metaphorical basis. It became clear to me that others simply believed whatever they felt like and grafted it onto what bits and pieces of scripture they could. I always assumed most Christians were similar. It wasn’t until recently that I began to realize that in actuality most really do believe in the Bible. No really, they do. Crazy but true.

    You may argue that the ‘core message’ is maintained even without a literal interpretation but I would tell you that millions of Christians would vehemently deny that. Besides, if all that matters is faith, love and hope, why not just drop the mythological pretense and just embrace faith, love and hope?

  20. I think it is wonderful how the Christian meme can even be expressed in the language of a one star horror movie. Elvira, and Lon Chaney would convert… What a hoot!

    I like to put the christian idea in technical terms.

  21. Nick Tarleton

    The more interesting thing is that, given the unusually high percentage of Internet content creators with training in abstract thinking skills, an extraordinarily shallow interpretation of Christianity receives so much attention. I’m sure most of the persons who perpetuate such interpretations are completely aware that they are not only exagerations, but also inaccurate characterizations.

    I trust your interpretation of Christianity isn’t that shallow, but how sure are you others’ interpretations aren’t?

  22. Michael,

    I wasn’t criticizing your beliefs. I just don’t see what’s to be gained by mocking ANYone’s religious beliefs. Doesn’t really contribute to the discussions here. Disagreeing with Christianity is fine – not mocking it.

    That said, I love your blog and have been reading it for years. This just seemed out of character.

    Scott

  23. Nick Tarleton

    Conversely, statements like these are also overgeneralizations:

    Christianity is rooted in the dogma around the mythological stories. You can’t get more fundamental than Genesis.

    I think Christianity encourages persecution of homosexuality, dehumanization of non-Christians, dividing thought into sacred (unquestionable) and secular (questionable) spheres, among other ill effects.

    Lincoln is far from the only Christian who’s not a nitwit fundie.

    Giulio: But do not criticize them for what they believe, because that is not your business or mine.

    http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/04/your_rationalit.html
    http://www.overcomingbias.com/2006/12/you_are_never_e.html
    http://www.overcomingbias.com/2007/01/outside_the_lab.html
    etc.

    Jordan: while there are plenty of liberal Christians I believe the majority do in fact believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible and would most likely regard you as mislead at best, not even Christian at worst.

    Apparently, it’s hard to tell, but if it is a majority it’s not a huge one.

  24. It’s not really “mocking” except for the word “zombie”. As I now see, a similar and even more convincing tract also appears on a legitimate ex-xtian website.

    Eugens is right. This is all pointless. When I was 10 I told myself I shouldn’t even bother arguing atheism. The only strategy is to WAIT (for thousands of years if necessary) until everyone sees that JC is not coming, he was never coming, and that JC is the same as every other religious leader — some mortal man who made up a mythological system to answer “big questions” with convenient fiction.

    Scott, this isn’t out of character for me. The only difference now is that I’m threatening what you consider the very essence of your being.

    “Makes perfect sense” is obviously sarcastic because none of this makes sense. To me, the fact that so many people believe in a vengeful sky god that sends people to be tortured for all eternity (if they do trivial things like worship idols or have homosexual relationships) is just a large, bad dream.

  25. My take has always been that each of us is entitled to our own beliefs. Besides, I figure that waiting thousands of years is unnecessary – I’ll find out when I die. Like Socrates said, either death is nothingness or I’ll go to heaven – either way, it’s okay.

    As for you, it’s up to you what to believe. I realize many (most?) Christians won’t say this, but the Bible states that it’s up to God to convince a person, not us. And reading about Jesus, he only approached once – the rest of the time people came to him.

    As long as you understand that some Christians are still capable of carrying on intellectual discourse, that’s all I ask. I guess it comes down to respecting others right to believe what they want – and yes, I admit many Christians are bad at that. Not as bad, I think, as Islamists!

    Scott

  26. There’s a distinction between 1) respecting others’ right to believe what they want, 2) respecting others as people, and 3) respecting others’ beliefs. I respect anyone’s right to believe anything they want, and I respect most Christians as people, but I see no reason to respect a belief system that I think is morally ugly and rationally indefensible.

  27. Nick Tarleton

    There’s also a difference between a legal right to believe whatever you want (absolutely essential) and a social right (much more questionable).

  28. In the ‘future’ they’ll probably have better abilities to ‘measure things of a spiritual nature’. Like spooky motion at a distance.

    Maybe in the future we’ll be better able to distinguish history from metaphor.

    Maybe the Holy Ghost is a nanobot cloud.

  29. Nick: “There’s also a difference between a legal right to believe whatever you want (absolutely essential) and a social right (much more questionable).”

    I don’t understand this. It seems to me that if a legal right is essential, the same thing should be essential as a social right.

    Thanks for the pointers to the interesting articles on the Overcoming bias blog. Interesting, but I disagree.

    If I want to believe in Santa Claus, this is my business. It cannot be yours, because my belief in Santa Claus does not take anything away from you, and has no objective impact on you (a moral judgment is not objective impact, in other words just look the other way).

    You may say, of course, that as long as I wish to believe in SC fine, but I should not persuade others to believe in SC. I also don’t agree on that, because you cannot take away my right to free speech as long as I don’t harm anyone. If you think that people should not believe in SC, then it is _your_ task to outwit me and offer better arguments than mine to others.

  30. Interesting discussion there, guys. I am an atheist, and I appreciate what Michael is doing here. However, I don’t particularly think it’s going to make any significant difference.

    My take on the religious belief is that it is virtually impossible to convince a religious believer to stop believing in their chosen religion using rational, evidence based arguments. As we can see from this thread, even intelligent religious people cannot see where they’re going wrong, even when their mistakes are pointed out clearly and concisely. Religion, it seems, installs a meta-algorithm in the mind of the believer which simply stops any thought which could lead to the believer losing their belief. It’s like a virus which takes control of the operating system: any attempt to install anti-virus software (rationality) or to un-install the virus will be stopped in it’s tracks.

    I don’t, however, think that atheism is a completely lost cause. I think that we, as atheists, need to come up with value-based arguments for atheism, rather than factual arguments. Let me make this distinction clear: An argument of the form “this piece of evidence points to a low likelihood of God’s existence” or of the form “this aspect of religious belief is logically self-contradictory” WILL NOT WORK.

    What we need are arguments of the form “define the intrinsic value of life to be … “, followed by an argument whose conclusion is “and so life is actually less valuable if a god exists”. Religious belief is about wishful thinking. You won’t get rid of it until you can convince people that the lack of a god is what people would want to wish for anyway.

  31. @Giulio: “If I want to believe in Santa Claus, this is my business. It cannot be yours, because my belief in Santa Claus does not take anything away from you, and has no objective impact on you (a moral judgment is not objective impact, in other words just look the other way).

    You may say, of course, that as long as I wish to believe in SC fine, but I should not persuade others to believe in SC. I also don’t agree on that, because you cannot take away my right to free speech as long as I don’t harm anyone.”

    - and this is often the case, if you replace “santa” with “god”, Giulio! Religious people may well be bad for society, as in they may cause net harm. So spreading religion may well be a sufficiently evil act to warrant the removal of someone’s right to free speech. In practice, this would probably not work (because religions are very good at getting their message out, and suppressing them imperfectly will probably result in even more virulent spread), but I would not want to reject it in principle.

  32. Michael –

    I have three quibbles:

    1. It is highly inaccurate to say that 99.9% of Christians accept a literal interpretation of the Bible. Bear in mind that the majority of Christians on this planet are either Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, not American evangelicals. Both of these traditions have adopted a wide variety of approaches to scripture over the centuries — and a wide variety exists within both traditions today, in spite of an outward insistence on unifomrity of doctrine. Pope John Paul II specifically rejected the “fundamentalist” interpretation of scripture, meaning the approach used in evangelical churches in the US and elsewhere:

    “The basic problem with fundamentalist interpretation of this kind is that, refusing to take into account the historical character of biblical revelation, it makes itself incapable of accepting the full truth of the Incarnation itself. As regards relationships with God, fundamentalism seeks to escape any closeness of the divine and the human. It refuses to admit that the inspired Word of God has been expressed in human language and that this Word has been expressed, under divine inspiration, by human authors possessed of limited capacities and resources”

    –The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church (1993)

    2. Lincoln is a very articulate proponent of his beliefs, but I think he would agree that his rational approach isn’t nearly as unusual as you seem to think it is.

    3. I think the term “zombie” is problematic because it is being used synonymously with the phrase “reanimated corpse.” A square is a rectangle, but a rectangle is not necessarily a square. So, too, with zombies and reanimated corpses. For example, vampires are reanimated corpses, but I think most would agree that it would be inaccurate to describe them as “zombies.” Or take the Creature from Frankenstein. Nobody ever called HIM a zombie. When we think of zombies, we tend to think either of the voodoo variety — which are enslaved to a witch doctor and act to carry out his / her will — or the Night of the Living Dead variety, which are mindless cannibals. Since Jesus doesn’t have any of the characteristics of either of these types of zombie, the term appears to be a bad fit.

    Interestingly, if one were to insist that any reanimated corpse is a zombie, then several other characters from the New Testament — and I believe at least one from the old — would be zombies, including Lazarus. In The Last Temptation of Christ, Nikos Kazantzakis portrays Lazarus as having the potentially zombie-like characteristic — or at least the horror-movie characteristic — of continuing to decompose even after being raised from the dead. Ick!

    How, you might wonder, is this relevant? Maybe it isn’t, but then I’m never one to join into these religious arguments. I prefer just to offer up the odd quibble. ;-)

  33. Roko: “I would not want to reject it in principle”

    I would. Even besides value judgments, removal of free speech never works as intended and often produces the opposite results by making martyrs of those whose free speech has been removed.

    Of course as you say, it is almost impossible to talk someone out of religious belief. But there are two things that can be done:

    1) Making religion irrelevant. This is what happens now in most of Europe. Churches are still there and their architecture is admired, but nobody really pays much attention to what priests say.

    2) Making sure that those official representatives of religions who engage in illegal practices opposite to what they preach, like stealing public money, rape or sex with minors, are punished with the hardest sentences foreseen by the Law. At some moment this does begin to have an effect.

  34. Phil, I do agree that rational approaches to religion are more common than Michael has recognized. He probably hasn’t had much of an opportunity to be exposed to them.

    Michael, I don’t share your opinion that discussions such as this are pointless. To the contrary, I think they’re essential, particularly for groups like the World Transhumanist Association, which seeks to promote a common cause among persons from varying ideological backgrounds. I’ll add that your confidence that Jesus will never return implies relatively pessimistic expectations regarding the future of technology; as I see it, if sufficiently empowered persons care long enough about certain kinds of futures, they’re likely to create them. That aside, expectations regarding the particular return of Jesus of Nazareth are not the most important aspect of prophecies regarding the return of Christ, which, as Paul the apostle taught, most importantly occurs in YOU, individually, as well as in us, as a community.

    Roko, you mention that “even intelligent religious people cannot see where they’re going wrong, even when their mistakes are pointed out clearly and concisely.” That is incorrect. I (like many other religious persons) see detriments in religion generally, and in my own religion in particular. However, you and I evidently weight them differently in comparison to perceived benefits, which probably explains why I am religious and you are not.

  35. @Giulio:

    I’d agree with you that it’s hard to talk people out of religious beliefs! I think that coming up with an alternative value-system is probably the best way to get people to drop their religious beliefs, and ideas like transhumanism certainly help in this respect. People will be much keener to jump ship from their religious beliefs if they think there’s somewhere to jump to.

  36. @ Lincon: “Roko, you mention that “even intelligent religious people cannot see where they’re going wrong, even when their mistakes are pointed out clearly and concisely.” That is incorrect. I (like many other religious persons) see detriments in religion generally, and in my own religion in particular. However, you and I evidently weight them differently in comparison to perceived benefits, which probably explains why I am religious and you are not.”

    Sorry, I should have been more clear: when I said “going wrong”, I meant in the strictly rationalist sense, i.e. you are making errors of reasoning which are preventing you from getting to the factual conclusion that your religion, mormonism, is almost certainly a fabrication.

    It is quite possible that failing to grasp the above fact is a good thing for you; there may be some quite nice benefits to believing a falsehood.

  37. Roko, I am confident that my religion is a fabrication, as explicitly acknowledged by the founder of Mormonism, Joseph Smith:

    “If a skilful mechanic, in taking a welding heat, uses borax, alum, etc., and succeeds in welding together iron or steel more perfectly than any other mechanic, is he not deserving of praise? And if by the principles of truth I succeed in uniting men of all denominations in the bonds of love, shall I not have attained a good object? If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way.” (Teachings 313)

    The more interesting question is whether the fabrication was inspired of God. That’s something you and I are likely to disagree on.

    That aside, what are the “errors of reasoning” that I am making, as you claim? It’s quite easy to make such a claim, but altogether more difficult to justify.

  38. @Lincon: well, for a start you have contradicted yourself just now: If mormonism is a fabrication (i.e. is false), then I fail to see how it is sensible to ask if it is inspired by God. The falsehood of mormonism includes the non-existence of the mormon God.

  39. Roko, you are intelligent enough to know that I did not mean “false” when I concurred with “fabricated”. Given that, I’m not sure why you chose to respond as you did, except perhaps as an attempt to persuade relatively naive persons that I am somehow irrational based on an inaccurate interpretation of my comments.

  40. . . . beyond that, it is poor reasoning to assert that a God does not exist if a religion that teaches of it is false. That is a logical fallacy, as it would be to claim that Marx did not exist if the ideologies that focused on him were false.

  41. Scottar

    If you want the truth behind Christianity and the other 3 most contentious religions, you have to go back to their historical roots. This author puts it all in perspective. You don’t have to get his book to see the truth behind the religious hype:

    http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

    If you are still an apologists you will be shocked or outraged. Not for the weak of mind.

    For you evangelicals, you can damn me to hell all you want as I know either existence after death ceases or continues as a consciousness, and it doesn’t depend on a mangod.

  42. Bryan

    OK, I need to step in for a second.

    I see a lot of Christians getting angry at Michael for bringing up some very important points… but maybe I can rephrase his argument in a way that shows his real concern. Maybe you’ll see why he (and I) have a genuine issue with Christianity.

    If you follow history you see much evidence of exploitation of the masses by way of religion. At the dawn of Christianity, regardless of the mysticism (remember modern science wasn’t around to explain a lot of things), the teachings were meant as a way to inspire an oppressed people and teach basic moral lessons. Are many of these moral lessons horribly out-dated? Of course. However, did it work for the time period in which it was created? More or less.

    One thing that people must realize is that 2,000 years have passed and the world has changed drastically. The rules of 20 years ago don’t apply today… nevermind 2,000. In another few centuries the world today will be only a distant bittersweet memory for most of us. The problem with religion is that it prevents otherwise logical people from coming to reasonable conclusions about the world around us and therefore, it stands in the way of great progress.

    “I wonder why things fall to the ground.”

    “Are you crazy? That’s God’s realm.”

    The scientific method was developed as an elegant way of sorting pre-conceived notions from verifiable evidence. It’s simple: in a nutshell you just isolate a pair of variables and test the relation between them while making sure to keep the rest as stable as possible. This fundamental process has given us the world we have today… it has filled entire libraries and elevated the common human knowledge to a point that would seem truly godly by ancient standards.

    And yet we inhibit ourselves with our superstitions. We use religion to block things that make us uncomfortable. Is homosexuality wrong? Any self-respecting scientific mind would answer an affirmative “NO”. Why? Because we understand that humans are animals. Animals are natural. Homosexuality, like technology, is proven by it’s very existence to be a natural occurence. Do we understand it? A lot of us don’t… but the beautiful thing about science is that it encourages us to ask questions. Where Christianity will call these people sinners and do everything they can to remove them from society, secular scientific minds will ask the tough questions. Why do mostly heterosexual animals (and we’re not the only ones) sometimes exhibit homosexual behavior? The difference between science and religion in this case is that science has no agenda. Scientists will likely come to a conclusion involving genetics or neurochemical processes whereas Christians will blame Satan, as an excuse to not have to interact with those that make them uncomfortable.

    The bottom line is that science never claims to be TRUTH. Science simply provides theories and evidence for people to interpret. The idea of faith, however, in its ‘absolute truth’ is absolute sociopathy. It has ruined many lives and continues to do so. Thanks to pressures from Christian fundamentalists in the US, life-saving stem cell research was made ILLEGAL for 8 years under President Bush. It’s hard to fathom what 8 years of stem cell research could have produced.

    And now the Roman Catholic Church seeks to further stifle progress by scaring Catholics around the world into thinking transhumanist research is evil.

    And it’s worse.

    Turn on Fox News and watch them blatantly exploit people’s beliefs to gather fanatical support. It’s getting really scary. Watch Glenn Beck or Sean Hannity or Bill O’Reilly spew their hateful rhetoric under the guise of “morality”. As a human I am ashamed that for so long we have allowed our species to be man-handled by religion. It seems it may be a widespread case of Stockholm Syndrome among religious people… people who would realize that their faith is being used to exploit them if only they could be objective. But that’s the genius of religion… it’s wrong to question it. There’s a reason vile Kings use religion to control their subjects.

    I have nothing against Christians per se. I have more of a deep sadness for those who are imprisoned as such. I love humanity. I love our planet. I am forever in wonder of the majesty of sapience. For these reasons people like Michael and I worry about the socially-destructive potential of faith as we enter this new era of scientific understanding and mastery. I encourage people to (respectfully) challenge the faith of themselves and others. Humanity needs to come to some sort of consensus if we want to prevent a Great Divergence over the next century (although I think neo-luddist tendencies are too far ingrained for such a species split to be avoided).

    The unfortunate reality for religion is that it must also figure into the most denied theory of them all… evolution. As posthumans begin to populate the planet and the universe, there’s a very real possibility that the faith-laden wing of humanity will be simply out-competed. It saddens me that religious families, for no good reason, are dooming their descendants to poverty and extinction.

    I just hope that humanity is more resilient than religion.

  43. Christ

    Michael,
    This was a very interesting blog I have stumbled upon and I am amazed!
    The thing about Christians, and yes this will be my soapbox moment, is that they believe everything in the Bible is correct. But no, they don’t even attempt to look at the facts, let alone the atrocities throughout the so 2000 years. They believe the words are of God, but have been re-written countless times, edited, and adding of things to fit the needs of the times. Almost all the modern traditions were stolen, let alone raped from the Germanic/Scandinavian/Celts and other Euro Pagan Rites. Lets take the Christmas Tree. A converter, can’t remember who, Saint Bonapart or rather, went into German lands to teach the gospel. He ran into some Pagans dancing around a tree and was so pissed off he had the tree cut down. Then the next day a sapling was growing from the stump and he took it as a sign of Christ, instead of Mother Nature mocking him saying “you have no power here!!”, and I added that not Nature :). This was I believe around the late 1500′s or early 1600′s, and it wasn’t until the late 1800′s the German ppl started taking the trees inside to decorate. Also, it was a 6th century Pope who created the 7 deadly sins, which was to control all the debauchery running rampant within Italy’s borders. Also, if you’re Catholic, take notice of the Pope’s wardrobe, it’s pretty much stolen from those of the Mediterranean Sea who worshiped Dagon some 100′s of years before Catholicism was a thought.
    Anyways, Easter was stolen from Celts, Saint Nick was stolen from a lot of traditions. Stories stolen from Gilgamesh to the Zorastrians, whom of which the Christians adopted the concept of the Anti-Christ, whom Zorash had Light and Dark forces. But the biggest thievery of the Bible, it came from the Torah and Koran. The stories, folklore and myths were re-written and all construed to fit their own selfish needs. How many people need to continue to die over the concept of God? 100′s of thousands died in that big Tsunami in Indonesia a few years ago, 10′ of thousands died in earthquakes in China and Turkey and everywhere else in the world, innocent children are molested by Father figures of the cloth let alone some other disgusting creeps on the streets, women raped, some men too….is it cause they are not Christian or is it maybe that God doesn’t exist, and if he does/did, he either is dead or really doesn’t give a flying F**K about us. Many innocent people die and people of faith give nothing but excuses cause that’s all they have gotten since the whole concept of God began. “Their in a better place” “Their in God’s hands now” and other ridiculous things… I don’t need his salvation, I don’t need his kingdom, MY KINGDOM IS HERE.
    Next thing you know, is we get visited by or we come into contact with another lifeforce in that great vastness where stars burn, and some Christian will take it as a sign of God or Jesus. In order for mankind to reach it’s full potential, cause we have so much and there are so many great people out in this world, we need to remove the concept of God. Here and Now. For if it doesn’t get removed, we are all dead. The fires will fall from the sky and it will be done my mans hands cause we have so much blasted hate for one another, and sitting in the middle is God, Shalom, Allah…and when it’s all over…silence…. … .. .

    And yes my name is Christ, I didn’t name myself, and no relation to him. I am for me. IT IS I AND I ALONE.
    Thank you for your time, and those are just my opinions, and please look up what I put. I am too tired after slaving all day and do not have correct names and dates, but there’s a whole web for you to find out the truth..let alone great books out there. Stay away from theology cause they are the ones that help brainwash, since the are very biased on only supporting theories of God. Knowledge out-ways fiction.
    Pieces To All,
    Christ

  44. Patty

    “The belief that Jesus can make you live forever if you participate in Holy Communion and accept him as your Lord and Savior, so he can grant you freedom from Original Sin because Eve was convinced by Satan to eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.”

    I am a Christian, but what you said isn’t in the bible. Holy Communion has nothing to do with eternal life. Read John 3:16 and if you really don’t believe in God well that is your choice — the BIBLE calls you a fool.

    Why would I be offened by anything you might say about God that is unkind or ugly — if God isn’t offended then I have no right to be offended. The Good News is the fact that Jesus Christ died for the whole world — you have a free choice to accept that free gift of salvation or not — you get to decide where you spend eternity. The choice is yours and the gift is from Christ if you choose to accept it.

    God simply loves you — he is love and he can’t do anything but love you. He has made it very clear that the only way to the Father is through accepting the Son as your Savior — if you choose not to do this then I am deeply sorry.

    I will pray for you — may God open the eyes of your heart and give you ears to hear with — I ask this in Jesus’ precious name. Amen

  45. Johnny Scott

    I’m a Christian and I was not offended by the image because what it describes is not what I believe.

    1) Jesus isn’t a zombie since a zombie is the walking dead – Jesus is simply alive.
    2) “Holy Communion” isn’t required and calling it that makes it read like catholic church dogma bashing more than Christian bashing.

  46. Johnny Scott

    Also. Every time I read an atheist having an emotional reaction to Christianity, I can’t help but see you all as insecure and threatened. Seems odd to be threatened by something you claim to be convinced doesn’t exist. My honest opinion is that most atheists at some level fear there is a God and perhaps even know it at a primal level thus the fear and insecurity when it comes to Christianity.

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