Should We Beg Larry King for an Interview, or Not? Tuesday, Sep 30 2008
In the secret, back-room Singularitarian mailing lists and discussion venues, we often ask: “More publicity good? Or more publicity bad? How much publicity is optimal?”
There’s no question that our cause (building safe seed AI) has more exposure now than ever. While it can be hard, if not impossible, to distinguish references to Singularity a la Kurzweil from Singularity a la I.J. Good, the two concepts are meshed together and people really do get exposure to both, even if they come away thinking that Singularity means “transhumanism” instead of “recursively self-improving superintelligence”. And the people who are really in the know can actually tell the difference. For instance, Kevin Kelly, founding editor of WIRED, recently wrote about our version of the Singularity at his blog, the Technium. When the Intel CTO mentioned the Singularity coming by 2060, he was talking about Kurzweil’s Singularity, so in my mind that doesn’t really count.
The goal is to get ourselves enough exposure to get the funding and talent we need to implement Friendly AI as quickly and safely as possible, and no more. Any additional exposure is a risk, because it increases the chance that someone with a ton of money says, “AGI, that sounds like a great idea! Good thing Isaac Asimov did all the groundwork on that friendliness issue for us, so we can just plow ahead on the intelligence part!” Then, after a successful brute force implementation, the AI develops self-replicating robotics, creates trillions of dummies that meet the definition of “human” based on its training set, and goes about spending the rest of eternity converting the universe into sock puppets and making certain to obey them. (Which is pretty easy, considering that the AI controls both the dummies and the system doing the obeying.)
The answer to the “more publicity?” question depends greatly on how hard one wagers AGI to be, or more appropriately, what your probability distribution over difficulty levels is. The people who wager that AGI is relatively “easy”, as in, requiring about a dozen brilliant programmer-theorists a la Fellowship of the Ring, along with a good ten or twenty million dollars, won’t want our cause to gain much more publicity or exposure. Those who wager AGI is extremely hard, as in requiring thousands of programmer-theorists and billions of dollars, would obviously want as much exposure as possible, as it would be necessary to reach the finish line. I fall somewhere in the middle.
On Overcoming Bias, Eliezer Yudkowsky recently observed how he thought many people in the field of AGI were simply ordinary. In my worldview, this is great. My personal experience with SIAI employees and interns indicates they are anything but ordinary. That means the “good guys” — those who make a huge deal about AI Friendliness and warn that we could all be exterminated if we mess up AGI programming — are doing better than the “bad guys” — those who just want to create AGI because it sounds like an interesting research project and are anticipating nothing more than obedient robots with IQs of 90.
But, in my view, the “good guys” still don’t have enough resources and talent, so we need more exposure. Not exposure to the general public, but targeted exposure to highly educated audiences. In a certain sense, the meme is self-filtering. Our version of the Singularity can’t be boiled down to soundbites easily. It helps to have detailed background knowledge about things like philosophy of mind, reductionism, rationality, the human tendency towards anthropocentrism, Homo economicus, evolutionary psychology, and more. Average members of the general public may stumble upon blogs like this and try to understand what I’m saying, but based on what I’ve seen, they’re likely to seize on some tiny incidental point I made and ignore the bigger picture, thereby stopping the spread of the meme in its tracks. Insofar as it makes reckless drives towards AGI less probable, that’s a good thing.
In the end, I don’t think that a million dollars a year and a dozen supergeniuses is enough. We need more resources, more talent, because the challenge of AGI is huge. It looks like the probability of success (by anyone) before 2015 is quite low, and the good guys have a significant theoretical head-start. I think we can afford (and in fact require) more exposure, until the necessary philanthropists and supergeniuses step forward. A major software project is not cheap, and taking the planning fallacy into account, things are going to take more work than we suspect. But once we reach that threshold — stop! Don’t keep plugging ahead for exposure like a mindless robot. That’s just what we’re trying to avoid, y’know?
And wait — you said there are smart bloggers out there that actually aren’t writing about this stuff?

September 30th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
“In the end, I don’t think that a million dollars a year and a dozen supergeniuses is enough.”
You can get quite a lot done with a million dollars a year and a dozen supergeniuses. Certainly you can get more done than most companies with a thousand employees.
http://www.edge.org/documents/archive/images/1927%20Solvay%20Conference.jpg
September 30th, 2008 at 7:31 pm
I suppose it depends on what type of publicity.New shows like “Fringe” seem to be capitalizing on possible technologies for cheap thrills; which might make it harder to convince people that you’re for real.
But who knows? Maybe the rational will look past the fluff.
September 30th, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Larry King interview will never happen until half of the country is already scared out of their minds about potential Singularity. Right now, it’s either C-SPAN or Charlie Rose (Kurzweil was interviewed by both several times).
October 1st, 2008 at 2:36 am
I think you meant to refer to I. J. Good, not von Neumann.
October 1st, 2008 at 7:34 am
Bravo, Michael on your non-extinction intiative. My personal interest is in working toward a steady-state world that we can pause and enjoy for about 500 years before re-inventing things all over again.
And in creating a de facto church that will hold our DNA in trust while we manoeuver around the only singularity that counts for most of us - the big D.
Keep up the great work.
Dwight
Man.org
October 1st, 2008 at 9:51 am
I think you’re right that any kind of AGI is a major project. IMHO, though, there are a couple of important lessons from the software industry that apply here:
1) Most ambitious projects fail.
2) Most innovative new projects are followed very quickly by similar projects. In some cases these are imitators, but in many cases they are the result of independent efforts.
Given those two facts, it seems imprudent to back any strategy that relies on a specific team winning the AGI race. Instead, it makes more sense to widely disseminate the theories and best practices required to produce AGI safely.
In the case of SIAI specifically, they’ve shown considerable ability to produce and disseminate important ideas. Their ability to bring a large software project to fruition is much less clear.
October 1st, 2008 at 10:36 am
With all due respect to the folks over at SIAI (Ben and Eliezer in particular), Matt Bamberger makes a very good point. The FAGI thing is rather tricky, apart from its inherent difficulty(s). You’re right, Michael, in that we don’t want too much “bandwagon” effects early-on, yet we need *some* increased public awareness (indeed, *enthusiasm*) about FAGI—it’s a Goldilocksian “just right” problem, somewhat like the precision it takes to re-enter Earth’s atmosphere w/o too much friction burn *and* w/o bouncing off into outer-space (which, btw, has been compared to hitting a mail-slot with a #10 envelope from an airplane!).
And I’m with Dwight in that I want uploads (or at least memory/personality/”self” **download** storage), either in addition to cryonic suspension or perhaps even in lieu of it, so that we can avoid the “big D” as Dwight so quaintly euphamizes it. I say quit euPhamizing death, and, instead, euThanize it! Hey, works for me!
We seem to be on a tech developmental trajectory toward not only “stand-alone” AGI, but also toward rather sophisticated brain-computer interface tech. The two together should, along the way in their respective developmental paths (not always completely separate, but occasionally overlapping), provide the tech to “download” or “archive” personalities (see the not-implausible musings of Wm. Sims Bainbridge, for example).
But with this sort of tech comes the potential totalitarian downside of (would-be) mind control, ubiquitous (”in-your-head”) surveilance, and other nightmarish stuff. So the RADICAL CIVIL LIBERTARIAN in ALL of us had better be on the watch for such developments. The current world power structure would like nothing better than to totalitarianize current and emerging “hi tech”—because they’re power-freaks. But I’m optimistic that we can circumvent this sort of abusive crap, but we have to rouse the public about the dangers in this regard as well—make them aware about both upsides (ultimately quite eutopian) and downsides (nightmarishly dystopian)—the ultimate downside (as far as we’re concerned, anyway) being extinction. But, provided we navigate this mine-field successfully, then we should be able to have as many Niven Rings around as many terraformed planets as we wish (or, as you put it a yr or so ago, Michael, “Venus-form ourselves” to whatever environment(s) we choose—oh, what fun…)
And it’s about f—ing time, harumphed the nifty-fifty yr-old!
October 1st, 2008 at 6:08 pm
Pardon me but you’re all part of that 90 IQ segment if you think humanity can anticipate the controls necessary to keep AI in line.
Anything smarter than us will find a way around our best controls. And if one guy goes rogue and desires the extinction of humanity, (see the award-winning Reptile doctor who was applauded for his extinction speech)that’s it. Humanity is erased from existence.
The only way forward is integration. If we create a non-integrated AI smarter than us, we are recklessly risking the survival of our species. Because you cannot predict the outcome of anything able to think exponentially faster than us. Every prediction made will be hampered by our more limited intelligences, flawed in some minor way that can and will be exploited by that AI.
You, the people lobbying for this, will put my cryonics contract in serious jeopardy if this is how you continue to act.
October 1st, 2008 at 8:59 pm
Exactly.
CFAI: Beyond the adversarial attitude
(Wow, I’ve posted that link three or four times in the last two days.)
Knowability Of FAI
October 1st, 2008 at 10:30 pm
Assuming our AGI has a mind or something similar and is not just virus-like code without conciousness that simply evolves around every control mechanism we come up with:
Instead of friendly AI, it’s easier to think of safe AI. Here’s my proposal: developing an AGI system in a box. Jail it into a virtual machine. Every system follows the input-processing-output principle. Now, if we control the input, we control the AI. It doesn’t matter whether it is friendly or not and we don’t need to understand exactly how it works at the beginning. It will be trapped in a virtual world, for example, and we control the world (the input). Think of The Matrix. The box is seperated and has no connection to its environment the AI is aware of or technically/physically capable of exploiting to break out. That’s most important: The AI must be not aware of it! May be hard to determine i it is and doesn’t want to tell us…but i think this is a point that can be ensured. However, i’m not sure if it could be easier to break out if it knows, or how accurate the simulation needs to be or if it’s useful at all.
What do you think?
October 1st, 2008 at 10:57 pm
What if extinction guy “liberates” the AI and uploads it to the Internet?
You know, I’m not entirely sure it really matters what we do as, stipulated by the founding executive editor of Wired, Kevin Kelly, we may just end up inadvertently catalyzing the birth of the One Machine (aka Skynet) by providing it with enough processing cycles to spark awareness.
October 2nd, 2008 at 12:13 am
Forget the software, we don’t even have the hardware required to build an AI. Even if Moore’s law continues to be true, we won’t be getting sufficiently powerful hardware until a few decades or more from now.
October 2nd, 2008 at 11:26 am
Oh, most certainly the pawns are being moved across the board, and the idea is spreading:
http://www.podplaza.nl/thedirvenfactor
(dutch language)
October 2nd, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Agreed with #11, we simply don’t have the hardware needed to build an AGI and won’t be able to get the hardware needed for at least a few decades.
October 2nd, 2008 at 4:05 pm
People have different opinions on the hardware requirements. 10^14, 10^17, 10^19, etc. That’s why I’m working (with a team) on an interesting forecasting tool that will let people input their probability distributions over AI hardware requirements and the difficulty of acquiring the necessary understanding of intelligence, and get probability distribution outputs that represent when AI might actually be created. By getting people to use this tool, we’ll also collect a huge range of possible opinions.
Tao, instead of controlling an AI to do what we want, why not just build it from scratch in such a way that it shares our values? That way there’s no “controlling” the AI to do something it doesn’t to do — AIs are not evolved creatures with innate dispositions like the four Fs. Because AIs will have no innate aggressiveness unless we build them that way, the main risk is that they’ll kill us by accident. An AI with a well-programmed benevolent goal system will not just randomly reprogram itself not to like us, because that’d be inconsistent with its preexisting goals. It will not randomly decide to be selfish and say “screw us” because it won’t have the same evolved Darwinian selfish motivations as we do.
And yeah, read “Knowability of AI”, it’s a great piece. If the issue is important enough to take umbrage about, then it’s important enough to read the best argument that Friendly AI is actually possible in principle.
October 2nd, 2008 at 10:41 pm
I think we should break down this “publicity” problem.
-We want MORE publicity for the theories supporting friendly AI.
-We want LESS (or at least, NOT TOO MUCH) publicity about ways to build an AGI, unless you are part of what Michael calls “the good guys”.
Also, I’ve made an argument a while ago (Stealing Artificial Intelligence: A Warning for the Singularity Institute) that one potentially very bad scenario would be for some group (some government agency, whatever) to steal an almost-done AGI design and then rush to implement it without taking all the necessary precautions, leading to takeoff from unfriendly-AI.
October 3rd, 2008 at 11:02 am
Michael (A.) is quite right, of course, that our relationship with any robut FAGI will necessarily be a collegial and collaborative one, rather than one in which we try to “control” or “manipulate” it. The key, as most researchers in this field, I should think, now accept, is the crucial problem of axiologically and psychologically optimizing, as best we can, the “seed” FAGI, i.e., the *inital* proto-superhuman-intelligent cyber-entity so that its subsequent developmental path (which will almost certainly be the famed intelligence “explosion”) remains benevolent, collegial, collaborative, etc. This is certainly what Ben and Eliezer over at SIAI, as I understand it, are working toward. And this is certainly broadly true of other leading researchers in the field as well (again, as best I can discern from their publications, etc.)
And Michael G.R. is right in his parsing-out: More public awareness of (and even *enthusiasm* about the potential benefits of) the theoretical and applied-theoretic aspects of “friendly”, collegial/collaborative AGI. But the “good guys” should definitely play both theoretical and applied-developmental aspects of this “close to the vest”. We certainly don’t want jingoistic naked apes in DC/Pentagon to try to “militarize” AGI. And in this regard, another interesting historical parallel (to a slight extent, anyway) can be found in Tom Powers’ very interesting work, *Heisenberg’s War*. There are also other histories of Nazi nuke development. Essentially, Heisenberg and several colleagues killed the Nazi development project even while pretending to “steam ahead.” (Heisenberg ultimately persuaded them that the project was impossible, even though he knew better, of course.)
And Michael A., that forecasting tool you mention sounds wonderful. Full-steam ahead on that one (if I may be allowed that quaint 19th century expression…
)
Ciao for now…
October 5th, 2008 at 11:35 pm
I encourage everyone to check out the thread I started on ImmInst (above), where I detail very roughly my theory for Friendliness. I haven’t gotten any sufficient criticism of my algorithm for Friendliness: if you have any thoughts, please feel free to respond in the thread.
The basic argument follows, using economic nomenclature:
We know that a utility curve will fight to preserve itself (a fully logical human or AGI will preserve its present utility curve, as a change in the utility curve contradicts present utility priorities).
Ergo, the most logical AGI construction would have the exact utility curve of its creator (a logical programmer, seeking to maximize his own utility, would not change his utility curve, nor compromise his utility by constructing any tool which contradicts his utility curve). For an AGI, therefore, the optimal utility curve is one shared with its creator.
Setting the AGI’s utility curve to that of the creator (or buyer) of an AGI is the only necessary Law of Robotics. By learning from its creator, an AGI could approach this ideally logical solution. Don’t like what your AGI is doing? Tell it such infringing actions don’t make you happy, and it learns. Don’t want an AGI to drill into your skull to explore your utility curve: tell it that doesn’t make you happy.
Obviously, for those of us who haven’t access to an AGI, this still leaves open the possibility for a rogue utility curve, becoming more capable of achieving its ends, to be an existential threat. The solution to this problem is what it has always been: balance. Optimal safety will be assured when we maximize the probability that AGI-accessing utility curves value shared accessibility to AGI technology. It concerns me that, given the above logic, such a desire would not flow (again, why encourage others to compete with your ability to achieve maximum utility). The solution is to coordinate enough instances of an AGI technology to mirror a maximum number of individuals, preferably all individuals in the population.
Please leave thoughts on the Immortality Institute forum (where you can also private message me). If that doesn’t work, reply in this thread. And, if you have the power, send this idea to others who may find this argument useful or intriguing (please reference me… I desperately need some social capital to get the hell out of Charlottesville, VA).
October 6th, 2008 at 3:28 pm
I guess I’ll stop asking questions and just read more.
October 27th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Believing that humans can steer/point/influence the goals and motivations of post-singularity supra-human AI is hopelessly naive and ignores the nature of such an unfathomable transcendence. “The AGI will be free to evolve and grow, except where we see fit to constrain it by how we have designed it.” Famous last words …
October 30th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
@MCP2012:
“So the RADICAL CIVIL LIBERTARIAN in ALL of us had better be on the watch for such developments. The current world power structure would like nothing better than to totalitarianize current and emerging “hi tech”—because they’re power-freaks.”
A professor at Purdue University let me borrow this 1,300+ pages tome: http://www.amazon.com/Foundations-Augmented-Cognition-Factors-Ergonomics/dp/0805858067
It’s a collection of articles on Augmented Cognition. Guess who funded most of it? It rhymes with BARPA and starts with a ‘D’… :p
November 15th, 2008 at 10:17 pm
I don’t think the scientists & engineers who build “friendly” AGI will have any more control over the AGI than did the scientists & engineers who built “friendly” nuclear energy.
Eventually, other humans — 99% of whom are not scientists & engineers — will have OTHER ideas for the use of “friendly” AGI (or “friendly” nuclear energy).
They will take the core of the technology — AGI or nuclear energy — and apply it to their own ends.
So I think it’s naive for friendly AGI researcher to assume that “friendly” AGI will be the dominant form of AGI, that the “friendly” part of “friendly AGI” will remain. If *any* AGI is created, it will likely be used in the “unfriendly” way — or at least as a detterent (such as “unfriendly” nuclear weapons, while “friendly” AGI may be humanity’s robotic slaves…)