Charles Stross Adventures Continued Wednesday, Mar 11 2009
futurism 11:28 pm
On Futurismic late last week, I felt slightly bad about being so hard on Charlie Stross, or at least insofar as I was impolite, when someone said:
“Anissimov may be an expert on transhumanism, but he needs to work on his “humanism” – finishing off his disagreement with Stross’ post by slagging off one of his novels is cheap and small-minded.”
In response, I said:
“Bah, I’ll try to be nicer in the future. I just feel entitled to a slight rant once in a while. I think there’s a relevant connection between disagreeing with someone’s futurist reasoning and their approach to fiction. The ironic part is that Stross strongly promotes pro-Singularity ideas via his writing. If he thinks that mankind should forget the Singularity in the 21st century, he is working against himself.”
Then, Charlie Stross himself showed up and said:
“Michael Anissimov: “The ironic part is that Stross strongly promotes pro-Singularity ideas via his writing. If he thinks that mankind should forget the Singularity in the 21st century, he is working against himself.”
Er, no. Firstly, I’m saying: we cannot count on a singularity coming along in time to save us. (Or, indeed, on it being the right kind of singularity to save us, as opposed to our mobile phones or lifelogs or whatever interests it.) When embarking on an engineering project you can’t blithely count on some new enabling technology or material (that isn’t even on the drawing board) showing up in time to make the rest of your machinery work. You especially can’t rely on the arrival of a technology you can’t even define (and we don’t, as yet, appreciate the shape or structure of a mature intelligence amplification technology, much less a true AI — although I’ll concede that some of our tools today would look almost supernaturally powerful from a 1950s perspective).
Secondly — and you’re probably going to hate me for this — I am agnostic about the benefits for humanity of a singularity event. That is to say: it could be very good — or it could be our nemesis. I am not a singularitarian ideologue. I’m an SF writer who thought this was a Really Neat Idea and it needed exploring.
I’d like to live long enough to live forever, be able to reconfigure my own consciousness, reset my body to whatever age or condition I want (or do away with a body altogether), and all the rest of it — but I’m not basing my life on the assumption that on January 27th, 2031 (or pick any other date) I’m going to be able to do all this.”
No one is counting on a Singularity except people like Kevin Kelly. The entire Singularity Institute is based on the idea that a good Singularity shouldn’t be taken for granted. Then, I said:
“Charlie, it’s possible to advocate a Singularity without basing your life on the assumption of its success. In fact, many Singularitarians see it as entirely plausible that a successful Singularity will never occur. We just see it as an important cause. If we lack the engineering pieces necessary to make it happen, that only makes us consider it worthy of more investigation and development, not less.
The fact that you got the impression that people were counting on a Singularity to save them shows the misunderstanding circulating around the concept and how people really treat it — the appealing “Oh, look at those silly nerds, aping the awful fundies without even knowing it!” idea. This idea, while largely made up, is so seductive that it may be the first thing that many people think of when they hear the word “Singularitarian”.
Google “Rapture of the Nerds” and read the Black Belt Bayesian link for a better idea of my qualm here.
I know you’re an SF writer exploring an idea. I’m a pro-Singularity thinker (not ideologue — that would imply that I’m fanatically devoted to an idea without questioning its many assumptions) who is tired of Singularity advocates being portrayed as nerds waiting for the rapture. SF writers can have tremendous influence over how people see the future. So it would only be natural that I would object to your idea that the Singularity should be ignored.”
Stross replied:
“I appreciate your concerns (and I’m familiar with the Black Belt Bayesian blogger’s points), but I think you overestimate my significance as a mover and shaper of public opinion. Written fiction is, alas, a niche market these days, not much more significant than poetry: a single episode of “Buffy” or “Lost” has about as big an audience as the best-selling novel of any given year, never mind your average midlist SF novel (which it outstrips by about two orders of magnitude).
(Finally. It is generally a huge faux pas for an author to take issue with a review … but as a point of note, I’d like to mention that “Accelerando” is a fix-up of a series of short stories, written between early 1999 and late 2003, drawing on discussions that were going between about 1991 and 1995 on the EXTROPY-L mailing list — an early predecessor to the Extropy Institute’s current discussion group — which both Ken MacLeod and I were on. So I’m going to take your diagnosis of it as cocktail party chat circa 2005 as a net predictive win :)”
I would disagree with Stross that sci-fi writers are so meaningless. Do note that published science fiction authors are at the top of the geek hierarchy chart, and this isn’t random. Bruce Sterling has written:
“If poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world, science-fiction writers are its court jesters. We are Wise Fools who can leap, caper, utter prophecies, and scratch ourselves in public. We can play with Big Ideas because the garish motley of our pulp origins makes us seem harmless.”
– Bruce Sterling in the Preface to Burning Chrome by William Gibson
Makes you seem harmless to idiots. The non-idiots among us know that when most people think about the future, they actually think exclusively in terms of science fiction they’re aware of. This is called the fallacy of generalization from fictional evidence, and it is absolutely ubiquitous, especially among the Doctorow-loving crowd.
I think that disregarding the Singularity event because one considers the outcome to be fundamentally uninfluencable is dangerous and foolish. Of course there is a difference between a seed AI or human augmentee committed to egalitarianism and one created committed to narrower desires. We have the responsibility to make it committed to egalitarianism. When Stross crosses from sci-fi into public statements about his views on the Singularity, it is only natural for people like myself to show up and say, “you’re wrong”, and do so with an aggressiveness that is commensurate with how important I regard the issue to be.
In the overarching blog post, Paul Raven remarks:
“I think it’s fair to say that Michael is still hung up on a Gernsbackian idealist template for science fiction as a prediction engine; he’s much more qualified than I to talk about transhumanism and so on, but he doesn’t seem to recognise that sf is primarily a tool for examining the present (if indeed you consider it to have any value beyond pure entertainment, which is an equally valid opinion).”
Even if authors and the intelligensia like Raven view it as a tool for examining the present, this means little, because nearly everyone else exposed to it adds it to their “experience bank” for imagining the real, actual future.
Raven then quotes me when I say:
“Insofar as I care about sci-fi at all, which, honestly, is not a whole lot.”
And says:
“Not a whole lot, but enough to get riled when an sf writer seemingly treads on your ideological turf? You kids play nice, now.”
Notice that I only got excited when the discussion switched from characters in a story to public statements. When it did, I was happy to get all riled up, partially because it’s fun, exciting, and intellectually challenging, but also because I consider it genuinely important. Even if you don’t buy the latter, go with me on the former.




this post is one of the reasons I read this blog; it is spirited, and I very much like that, especially fun, exciting, and intellectually challenging
still, I think you went overboard on Charlie Stross; this is more of an opinion piece, which is alright, but it could have been a little more tempered
but, each of us does that from time to time; I personally like presenting things strongly, because I do feel strongly about things; but there is always a risk involved that it will be taken the wrong way, or be mean-spirited; sometimes, it’s the thin line thinning …..
anyway, if we don’t like the channel, we can always go to something else
When I see you in person, I will make fun of you for responding to anything with “bah.” Then, when that’s over, I’ll say “Hi,” and ask how you are doing.
I didn’t follow the other post this is from, so thanks for the summary. :)
Regardless of whether or not the singularity happens, is there any harm in trying to make the best of the hypothetical happen? Is there the possibility of awesome byproducts? (I think yes)
“Intelligentsia”? First time I’ve stood accused of that one! My mother will be so proud… ;)
More seriously, I’ll cop to the fact that I’m nothing more than a blogger looking to stimulate discussion around topics that interest me and my readers; I suppose you could call me an sf critic as well, but that wasn’t the mode I was trying to talk from. As I mentioned, I respect both you and Charlie hugely as thinkers who I read regularly, and while my own snark may not have been the best way to do it I was merely drawing attention to your tone (which did come across as a little personal) rather than your actual points, which are indeed both exciting and important (at least to me, as someone who likes to look at opposing viewpoints as closely as possible).
I guess that’s a long-winded way of saying “no offense meant”: I’d not change the way you think or the way you express yourself, that’s not what I (or, I sincerely hope, Futurismic) am about. I promise to throw less shells from the peanut gallery in future!
And finally, thanks for coming over to Futurismic to comment – I may not have expressed it well, but your contributions are valued, and I’d like to see more of them. Indeed, I’d be more than happy to host a guest essay or column from you; I know I’d enjoy it, and I think the readers would too.
Yours sincerely, etc.
No offense taken! Sorry if I come across as too personal in any of my writings, I’m just interested in stimulating discussion and making it interesting. It sounds like most everyone thinks I was too personal in my Stross post so I will try to tone it down. Your own snark is much milder than what I directed towards Charles, so it would be pretty hypocritical of me to take offense to that.
I’d be interested in contributing a guest piece to Futurismic… later this month is a possibility. In general, though, skimming a blog is many times faster than getting involved in the comments community and becoming emotionally invested in them (which happens inevitably).
Isn’t agnosticism about the benefits of a Singularity for humanity just the right attitude to take? Such a thing could be very good or very bad, and it’s unclear which.
I’m mainly concerned about the agnosticism with regards to not seeing the Singularity as a topic worthy of further study and likely importance. (Investigating the potential benefits and risks.) I will try to change the wording to something less ambiguous.
I’m not sure what you mean by “agnostic” about the benefits. If you mean agnostic in the sense that you know it could go either way, sure. If you mean “agnostic” in the sense of “too low probability to pay attention to”, or “I predict we can have no influence on the outcome whatsoever”, then no. I think the word “agnostic” may be confusing here — maybe we should use the word “unsure” instead, where appropriate.
Aubrey says:
“There is a very simple reason why so many people defend aging so strongly – a reason that is now invalid, but until quite recently was entirely reasonable. Until recently, no one has had any coherent idea how to defeat aging, so it has been effectively inevitable. And when one is faced with a fate that is as ghastly as aging and about which one can do absolutely nothing, either for oneself or even for others, it makes perfect psychological sense to put it out of one’s mind – to make one’s peace with it, you might say – rather than to spend one’s miserably short life preoccupied by it. The fact that, in order to sustain this state of mind, one has to abandon all semblance of rationality on the subject – and, inevitably, to engage in embarrassingly unreasonable conversational tactics to shore up that irrationality – is a small price to pay.”
I would add this trance is universal with regards to improving and upgrading from the squallor of the human state. You know (I think) very well what I mean, mike – it is the percentage of humans that are damaged in some fundamental way and know they have very little to lose but more misery.
Blocking out “Death” is one such denial mechanism that looks real. But similar psychological mechanisms seem to assert everything will always be more of the same, and there is nothing new under the sun, and ‘rapture of the geeks om nom nom nom’ and all that.
It’s endemic ‘people accepting what is and make do’. I don’t have that option, because what is, is unacceptable to me.